林先生, 我嘅理解就係你好似唔係好舒服喎, 係咪? 答 : 嗄主席 : 你係咪唔係好舒服? 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 主席 : 聽唔聽到我講咩嘢呀? 答 : 哦, 聽到, 而家主席 : 你係咪唔係好舒?

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巴被杭
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1 上午 10 時 01 分恢復聆訊出席人士 : 石永泰資深大律師許偉強大律師及鄭欣琪大律師, 為外聘律師, 代表梁陳彭律師行周錫綸律師, 代表雋景建材有限公司陳黃葉律師事務所林顯昭律師, 代表和興製品廠 r an ennicott 資深大律師及林定韻大律師, 由孖士打律師行延聘, 代表中國建築工程 ( 香港 ) 有限公司楊明悌大律師及李健宏大律師, 由趙司徒鄭律師事務所延聘, 代表何標記建築工程有限公司林國輝大律師, 由孖士打律師行延聘, 代表瑞安承建有限公司王鳴峰資深大律師陳樂信大律師及羅頌明大律師, 由律政司延聘, 代表水務署署長殷志明大律師, 由羅夏信律師事務所延聘, 代表香港房屋委員會許卓倫大律師, 由柯伍陳律師事務所延聘, 代表林麗瓊黃佩琪大律師及李頌然大律師, 由顧增海律師行延聘, 代表有利建築有限公司明合有限公司及伍克明許佐賓大律師, 由的近律師行延聘, 代表保華建築營造有限公司證人 : 林德深 ( 何標記前僱員 ( 持牌水喉匠 )( 啟晴邨和葵聯邨第二期 )) 宣誓繼續作供主席 : 等一陣吓,r Wong ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 1 -

資深大律師陳樂信大律師及羅頌明大律師, 由律政司延聘, 代表水務署署長殷志明大律師, 由羅夏信律師事務所延聘, 代表香港房屋委員會許卓倫大律師, 由柯伍陳律師事務所延聘, 代表林麗瓊黃佩琪大律師及李頌然大律師, 由顧增海

2 林先生, 我嘅理解就係你好似唔係好舒服喎, 係咪? 答 : 嗄主席 : 你係咪唔係好舒服? 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 主席 : 聽唔聽到我講咩嘢呀? 答 : 哦, 聽到, 而家主席 : 你係咪唔係好舒? 答 : 係, 有啲嘔呀主席 : 有啲嘔? 答 : 嗄主席 : 咁你可唔可以今... 答 : 先講我先喇, 而家我早上如果我唔得, 我就要去醫院主席 : 你唔得... 答 : 如果唔得嘅, 我要即刻去醫院呀主席 : 如果係咁, 你想選擇繼續喺度作供, 抑或想返屋企唞下, 抑或點樣樣呢? 答 : 盡我能力坐低喇主席 : 係喇, 因為... 答 : 嚟都嚟咗嘞主席 : 係呀, 都嚟咗如果你途中任何時間你覺得唔舒服嘅, 咁你就話聲畀我知 ; 明白吖嘛? 答 : 明白 ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 2 -

3 主席 : 咁我都唔知道啲律師要問幾耐㗎咁你有咩嘢問 -- 總之你就隨時舉手出聲就得㗎嘞答 : 唔主席 : 好係, 王大律師王先生 : 好王先生繼續盤問問 : 好答 : 好, 唔該晒你問 : 林先生, 我哋琴日就問到, 你話你第一次見到嗰卷綠色嘅 Y 無鉛嗰卷焊線, 錫線, 就係喺地盤開工時候第一次見咁我今日就想繼續嗰個題目咁我想就問你, 你所謂地盤開工嘅時間係指乜嘢呢咁? 答 : 即係佢哋即係裝喉嗰陣問 : 裝喉都係喺嗰個地盤, 整個地盤開工之後一段時間先至裝喉㗎喇, 係咪? 答 : 即係啱啱有一兩間房裝嗰陣問 : 好啱啱有一兩間房裝嘅時候你就到有呢卷綠色嘅 Y 無鉛嘅錫線嘞? 答 : 嗄問 : 咁請問你喺咩嘢情況之下見到呢? 你係咪巡呢一兩間房嘅時候見到呢? 答 : 即係話有工友裝緊喉, 行去睇下啫問 : 即係你巡, 䁓下, 睇下嘅時候就見有呢一卷無鉛錫線喺嗰個房入面嘞? 答 : 係呀 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

答 : 即係佢哋即係裝喉嗰陣問 : 裝喉都係喺嗰個地盤, 整個地盤開工之後一段時間先至裝喉㗎喇, 係咪? 答 : 即係啱啱有一兩間房裝嗰陣問 : 好啱啱有一兩間房裝嘅時候你就到有呢卷綠色嘅 Y 無鉛嘅錫線嘞?

4 問 : 咁你淨係嗰一次見到啫? 答 : 係呀問 : 之後就冇再見到嘞? 答 : 冇喇, 冇喇問 : 好嘞, 咁你見到嘅時候, 你見到嘅時候, 會唔會喺你嘅腦海之中就知道嘞, 呢卷就係你公司畀房委會批准咗可以用嗰卷錫料嘞, 啱唔啱? 答 : 呢個我都唔係好記得嘞, 知道係有嗰個焊料嘅問 :kay 好嘞, 咁呢一個地盤, 可唔可以講一講, 以你嘅記憶, 係邊一個地盤呢, 係啟晴吖, 葵聯吖, 定邊個地盤呢? 答 : 啟晴問 : 啟晴好嘞, 咁葵聯嘞葵聯嘅時候, 你有冇見過呢個錫線呢? 答 : 冇嘞問 : 好嘞, 咁你仲有做過十幾個地盤個喎, 其他嗰啲, 咁你又有冇見過呢一個錫線呢? 答 : 就即係以我印象中我就唔記得係...( 聽不清 ) 見到有人燒焊, 我就冇特登攞嚟睇嘅問 : 林先生, 或者我直接咁同你指出喇琴日你都同意咗你就知道嗰啲焊料要無鉛嘅, 九零年代你知㗎嘞你又知道有嘢係批准咗嘅, 有物料係批准咗嘅咁如果你巡呢啲地盤嘅時候, 你唔應該你有責任去睇一睇佢哋用嘅物料是否係被批准嘅物料咩? 答 : 我哋唔係帶住張 form 嘅,...( 聽不清 ) 行過, 咁望到嘅係, 問, 唔該問 : 林生, 你琴日都知道你有個木板房喇咁木板房有相, 其中一樣嘢就係嗰啲審批咗嘅物料就包括呢個錫線, 你知喇, 係咪? 答 : 唔係, 我哋去到只係望咋, 唔係由我監察嘅問 : 咁你望木板房嘅時候, 你有冇望到有個審批嘅材料就係呢個錫線呢? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

答 : 冇嘞問 : 好嘞, 咁你仲有做過十幾個地盤個喎, 其他嗰啲, 咁你又有冇見過呢一個錫線呢? 答 : 就即係以我印象中我就唔記得係.

5 答 : 因為我哋去睇, 佢唔係淨係得銅喉嘅, 有去水喉, 又有盛, 好多嘢喺度嘅, 唔係淨係我嗰行呀問 : 係, 我知道咁如果淨係你嗰行嘅, 有個木板房度, 有個作用㗎, 即係話你要根據木板房入面嗰啲嘢嚟裝嵌㗎嘛, 係咪? 答 : 咁佢係講個位置, 開窿開盛嗰啲嘢嘅問 : 咁仲有物料㗎嘛, 係咪, 喺木板房上面? 答 : 物料就當然有喇問 : 係喇咁個木板房有個作用㗎嘛, 就係畀你睇, 睇下工人係咪用番嗰啲物料㗎嘛 ; 咁樣講公唔公平呀? 答 : 就呢啲唔係我去對呀, 因為我公司有另外一個人管嘅問 :kay 主席 : 木板房定樣辦房呀? 王先生 : 木板, 木板主席 : 木板房, 我嘅理解上, 純粹就係搭咗嚟就睇下究竟留窿點留㗎咋嘛答 : 係呀主席 : 好多嘢都唔使駁嘅, 連啲喉都未必一定要駁, 咁當然睇下你問邊一個證人喇王先生 :kay, 唔該問 : 林先生, 既然你知道焊料係有上報嘅, 咁原則上你都同意, 你應該都知道除咗焊料之外, 其他水喉工程嘅物料其實都要上報, 得到房委會嘅批准嘅, 呢個你知唔知呢? ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 5 -

答 : 就呢啲唔係我去對呀, 因為我公司有另外一個人管嘅問 :kay 主席 : 木板房定樣辦房呀?

6 答 : 哦, 呢個肯定係問 : 你知㗎嘛? 問 : 好嘞, 咁如果你知道其他物料都要得批准嘅, 咁你作為水喉匠, 你都應該去睇一睇究竟房委會批咗啲咩嘢物料㗎嘛, 啱唔啱? 答 : 但係嗰陣時未正式批晒嘅問 : 未咩嘢話? 答 : 未正式批晒材料嘅問 : 係咁如果批晒之後, 你都知道佢梗係有一個時間佢會正式批晒㗎嘛, 啱唔啱? 答 : 批晒嘅情況, 即係話我係 -- 就公司批咗, 我只係得到啲 catalogue 問 : 係喇, 咁你就應該有齊啲 catalogue, 即係話房委會係批咗啲乜嘢物料㗎嘛, 啱唔啱? 答 : 咪就我上 art 嘅嗰個附表囉問 : 係嘞, 即係其實你都好緊張㗎嘛, 係咪? 我琴日講咗喇, 你上 art 嘅時候, 你好緊張嗰個附件入面嗰啲物料是否係同實際用嗰啲物料一致㗎嘛, 啱唔啱? 因為如果唔係, 你扣分個喎答 : 咁樣講, 即係批咗嘅料, 就係房署畀我畀水務署再簽嘅啫但係現場嘅, 揸住佢, 唔係一次過嚟咗好多嘅有成百幾種, 佢唔係一次過畀到我一次過望到晒嘅問 : 我即係想同你咁指出啫, 即係你應該係情理之內係會關心實際上房委會批咗啲咩嘢物料出嚟, 啱唔啱? 主席 : 呢啲你留番陳詞講喇王先生 : 好, 可以主席 : 係喇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

答 : 批晒嘅情況, 即係話我係 -- 就公司批咗, 我只係得到啲 catalogue 問 : 係喇, 咁你就應該有齊啲 catalogue, 即係話房委會係批咗啲乜嘢物料㗎嘛, 啱唔啱?

7 問 : 咁我想問你另外一個題目我想麻煩你㨴去,17,17 呢個係你呢個水務署個會面紀錄嚟嘅第 3 段, 林先生確認有關的水務表格 WW046 及相關嘅材料申報表係由他簽署及遞交, 但根據他記憶所及, 他未能確定實際安裝在啟晴及葵聯的水喉配件是否有依足該份申請表所申報的內容而安裝你見到嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 好嘞, 咁我想問下你嘞, 第一件事, 就係點解你未能確定呢, 同埋你係咪有責任去確定, 嗰啲用料係根據 WW046 安裝嘅呢? 答 : 因為我哋有好多時候唔係揸住啲表格一齊行樓嘅即係我哋係去巡視佢嘅, 只不過睇下佢啲嘢係咪依法例去裝問 : 好, 我再請你睇,25 頁吖,25 頁, 咁第 3) 嗰段, 第 3) 嗰段呢個係你嘅補充證人口供嚟嘅, 第 3) 嗰段, 你話潔具水龍頭建築公司負責採購, 水制什制何標記公司負責採購, 冇按 wwo 046 part1 part2 材料附表採購和安裝見到嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 我想問你幾時知道呢樣嘢㗎? 答 : 係開完會, 同埋你哋出咗個報告, 咁先知道有呢啲出咗問題嘅嘢喇問 : 哦, 即係你喺同水務署開會之前, 你唔知道嘅? 答 : 因為安到呢啲嘢嘅時候得 -- 地盤得幾個月時間, 尤其是水龍頭嗰啲, 得一個月時間都唔夠要裝晒問 : 係即係你裝晒之後, 你都唔知道佢係咪有跟 -- 即係何標畀你啲物料係咪有跟你簽嗰張 WW046 嘅, 啱唔啱, 你唔知嘅? 答 : 因為 -- 睇唔到嘅, 水龍頭冇打啲 number 落去, 又冇, 乜都冇, 淨係得個掣裝咗喺個潔具度, 我點證明到佢有乜嘢呢? 咁我有啲嘢唔記得咗嘞, 太耐嘞問 :kay, 你唔記得咗,okay 咁我再請你睇,15 吖, 同埋, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

答 : 因為我哋有好多時候唔係揸住啲表格一齊行樓嘅即係我哋係去巡視佢嘅, 只不過睇下佢啲嘢係咪依法例去裝問 : 好, 我再請你睇,25 頁吖,25 頁, 咁第 3) 嗰段, 第 3) 嗰段呢個係你嘅補充證人口供嚟嘅, 第 3) 嗰段, 你話潔具水龍頭

8 問 :,15 同埋,16 就係喺 7 月 11 號,2015 年, 你有封信寫畀水務署嘅見到嘛? 認得, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 好嘞, 你呢封係寫畀.. am 嘅咁許律師琴日幫你睇過第 15 頁我想你睇 16 頁,16 頁你嗰度就向水務署咁講嘅, o, please be reported that all our completed works are according to the ong ong Waterworks tandard requirements and being accepted by all the involved parties. 見到嘛? 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 問 : 我想問你嘞, 如果你都唔知道嗰啲水喉管或者物料是否根據你自己填寫嗰張 WW046 填嘅, 你咩嘢基礎講呢句說話呢? 答 : 因為佢就係 -- 嗰啲唔係我哋公司出㗎, 係另外一個公司, 我只係去到, 都已經完嘞, 但係個龍頭上面係冇牌子嘅, 睇唔到嘅, 我問 : 咁其實即係你冇基礎同水務署咁講個囉喎? 答 : 我 -- 呢個嘢我 -- 即係我唔 -- 我解釋唔到畀你, 因為我係打係咁打啫問 :kay 林先生, 我想問你另外一個題目琴日就有講過點解你辭職㗎嘛, 係咪? 問 : 你辭職, 就係話喺你新提交嘅材料入面, 你就畀咗 () to () 咁多個 project, 包括天水圍屯門警察宿舍咁樣你就話何標記嗰啲材料不符, 同你填嗰張 WW046 不符, 咁所以你話畀咗好多次警告, 畀佢咁你又擔心自己扣分, 所以你辭職嘞, 啱唔啱? 答 : 呢個都係一個理由嚟嘅問 : 好嘞, 咁我想問你嘞, 琴日許大律師都帶你睇過, 你之後就變咗斷工計, 但係你又簽咗係十幾份嘅 WW046 喎答 : 唔係, 唔係咁樣而係個問題就係咁樣, 因為有啲係合格嘅, 但係實際上佢哋入紙之前, 嗰個日子有啲佢抌印嘅啫, 但係即係個地盤唔係一開地盤落石屎就批畀佢嘅, 因為都要等你哋水務署有 approval letter 出咗, 證明到個 site 有幾多嘢批咗, 我先可以填得附表嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 8 -

accepted by all the involved parties. 見到嘛? 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 問 : 我想問你嘞, 如果你都唔知道嗰啲水喉管或者物料是否根據你自己填寫嗰張 WW046 填嘅, 你咩嘢基礎講呢句說話呢?

9 即係之前已經係仲係上班時間問 : 係呀, 我知你之前上班時間喇譬如你呢度講話以上 () to 何標記沒按照則師要求及水務署已批出嘅 wwo 46 part1 & part2 採購物料, 導致出現以上材料不符問題你咁講㗎嘛答 : 咁我就問佢, 你用咩嘢理由去改嘢? 佢答我唔到嘞問 : 好嘞, 咁我又想問啫, 咁既然你咁緊張個材料係咪符答, 咁你辭咗職之後, 你做件工, 咁你係咪更加應該緊張? 答 : 啊, 唔係喇, 嗰陣時去咗 -- 完工知道嗰陣時係要搵則師喇, 𠼮則師改表格喇問 : 林先生, 我好簡單啫, 我個問題就係話根據你嘅講法, 辭咗職之後, 你簽咗十幾份呢啲 WW046, 咁其實你都應該好緊張究竟啲材料符唔符合你 WW46 你先簽名㗎嘛? 答 : 就咁樣講, 最初係建築同我哋公司係做好晒交畀我但係完工嗰陣時候已經係去到差唔多 last day 兩個禮內嘅時候嗰啲嘢問 : 呢個就係你嘅答案? 答 : 係呀, 咁就變咗就唔對, 我要搵建築, 噅則師, 幫幫手喇, 如果唔係, 搞唔掂呀問 :kay 咁我到另外一個問題嘞我想你睇睇,11, 你第一份證人口供主席 : 得唔得, 林先生? 答 : 盡量主席 : 唔好盡量呀如果唔舒服嘅話, 唔好再繼續落去嘞我哋等你舒服啲嘅時候先至再聽你講嘅嘢今日唔好再畀證供嘞咁今日林先生嘅證供就去到呢一度返屋企唞下先喇遲啲我哋要再出信話畀林先生聽, 等佢好啲嘅時候先至再嚟咁就我哋而家休 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

答 : 啊, 唔係喇, 嗰陣時去咗 -- 完工知道嗰陣時係要搵則師喇, 𠼮則師改表格喇問 : 林先生, 我好簡單啫, 我個問題就係話根據你嘅講法, 辭咗職之後, 你簽咗十幾份呢啲 WW046, 咁其實你都應該好緊張究竟啲材料符唔符合你 WW46 你先

10 庭, 咁遲啲我哋會同林先生講咁有冇下一個證人, 就遲啲一件事答 :...( 聽不清 ) 主席 : 林先生, 我睇你今日都 -- 我唔覺得你應該繼續畀證供落去嘞咁遲啲我哋會再通知你幾時上嚟畀證供, 到時我哋會聯絡你咁我哋暫時休庭先唔該上午 10 時 20 分聆訊押後上午 10 時 37 分恢復聆訊出席人士如前周先生 : 主席先生, 我本人, 周錫綸, 事務律師, 係代表雋景建材有限公司嘅法律代表主席 : 係周先生 : 主席先生, 如果得到你嘅批准, 現在邀請周家平先生係進入呢個庭, 以作為呢個證人, 係主席 : 好呀叫周先生入嚟周先生 : 周家平先生雋景建材有限公司 ( 雋景 ) 的證人 : 周家平 ( 焊接物料供應商 ( 雋景董事 )) 以本地話宣誓作供主席 : 請坐答 : 唔該 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

20 分聆訊押後上午 10 時 37 分恢復聆訊出席人士如前周先生 : 主席先生, 我本人, 周錫綸, 事務律師, 係代表雋景建材有限公司嘅法律代表主席 : 係周先生 : 主席先生, 如果得

11 周先生 : 多謝, 主席先生周先生主問問 : 周家平先生, 你聽到我講嘢? 答 : 可以, 可以好, 唔該你問 : 當一陣間回答問題嗰陣時, 你對住個 mic,... 答 : 好問 :... 大聲少少周家平先生, 你係雋景建材有限公司嘅董事? 問 : 請你答出聲問 : 英文就係 rosperity uilding aterials ompany imited 問 : 你今天願意作為證人, 會喺呢個議會嗰度會作供嘅, 係咪? 答 : 係, 係問 : 你就向呢個委員會就係呈遞咗一份證人口供嘅問 : 就係喺 2015 年 11 月 26 號問 : 大聲啲 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

12 問 : 你冇反對我而家向委員會讀出你個證人口供嘛? 答 : 冇周先生 : 主席先生, 係主席 : 好呀 Y X W W W ( 周家平 ) ntroduction 1. am a director of rosperity uilding aterials ompany imited (the "ompany"). 2. make this witness statement in response to a letter dated 2nd ovember 2015 issued by essrs. o & o acting for the ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water (the "ommission") to the ompany (the "etter"). 3. am duly authorized by the ompany to make this Witness tatement, and do so pursuant to and under the auspices of sections 7 and 12 of the ommission of nquiry rdinance (ap. 86). 4. hereby provide information required by the ommission, in particular, in relation to the areas identified in the etter. he information provide in this Witness tatement either comes from my personal knowledge or is derived from gleaning of the ompany's documents and records. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

o & o acting for the ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water (the "ommission") to the ompany (the "etter"). 3.

13 5. or ease of reference: (a) adopt the terms and definitions as defined in the etter; and (b) refer below to each specific area as identified by the etter, then provide my comments immediately after. aveat 6. irst and foremost, it is incumbent on me to point out that the ompany is engaging in the business of, inter alia, sourcing, importing and supplying various kinds of materials for different engineering systems for ong ong customers. he ompany is a distributing agent of some soldering materials manufacturing or exporting companies but the ompany is not the sole agent in ong ong. oldering materials are some very common products which a customer is able to purchase from any company or hardware store all over ong ong without any difficulty or records. 7. n practice, as to the ompany, customers would not usually specify for what particular purposes the soldering materials would be used when they placed the orders. herefore, they could use the soldering materials for fresh water plumbing system for human consumption as well as for some other systems, such as, cleansing, plant watering, air-conditioning or fire services but the ompany would not know. urther, the ompany could have no means either to monitor the use of the soldering materials after their delivery or to ascertain whether products from other suppliers were also used for the same system. 8. n the premises, the ompany is only able to provide information about the supply of soldering materials to the nvolved states generally. he ompany is not in a position to state with certainty that the soldering materials had actually been used for which ranscript by orporation sia, imited

irst and foremost, it is incumbent on me to point out that the ompany is engaging in the business of, inter alia, sourcing, importing and supplying various kinds of materials for different

14 fresh water plumbing system of any of the nvolved states. his blanketing qualification applies to all my answers and information provided in this Witness tatement. rea 1: confirm whether your ompany has supplied soldering materials for the fresh water plumbing system to any of the 11 ffected states other than the 8 ffected states, and if so, identify the relevant ffected states (the 8 ffected states and such other relevant estates as identified by your ompany shall collectively be referred to as "the nvolved states ); 9. ccording to the ompany's records, the ompany has supplied soldering materials to following nvolved states: (1) n hau state; (2) hing o state; (3) hoi ook state; (7) ung om state; (8) ai hing state; (9) ung Wui state; (10) Wing heong state;and (11) wai uen state. 10. he ompany has no record of supplying soldering materials to the following ffected states:- (4) Yan n state; (5) ower gau au ok state; and (6) hek ip ei state. rea 2: identify generally the different types of soldering materials which your ompany has supplied between 2006 and 2014 (the period during which the ffected states were being constructed) to either the ain ontractors, ub-ontractors, ub-ub-onstructors or other person(s) for the purpose of jointing the pipes in the fresh water plumbing system (either in respect of the nvolved states or otherwise), stating the brand names, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

relevant ffected states (the 8 ffected states and such other relevant estates as identified by your ompany shall collectively be referred to as "the nvolved states ); 9.

15 countries of origin, specifications and whether such types of soldering materials are lead-free or contain lead (and if so, the amount thereof). lease prepare a price list (i.e. the price at which the materials were supplied by you) for these different types of soldering materials, and if the price has changed over time, identify such changes; 11. he ompany supplied 3 different types of soldering materials to the nvolved states in the relevant period, viz.: (a) ead ree older Wire( 無鉛錫線 ); (b) 50% ead lat older ticks (50 力扁錫條 );and (c) ilver razing ticks ( 銀焊支 ). 12. confirm that the ompany has supplied the above types of soldering/brazing materials to the nvolved states as follows:- states ead ree older Wire 50% ead lat older ticks (1)n hau state * (2)hing o state * (3)hoi ook state * ilver razing ticks (7)ung om state * * * (8)ai hing state * * * (9)ung Wui state * * (10)Wing heong state * * (11)wai uen state * * * 13. n relation to the brand names, countries of origin, specifications of the soldering materials: (a) ead ree older Wire is usually called "ry 99 ead-free Wire" and manufactured under the brand name "ernox". he country of origin is the etherlands; ranscript by orporation sia, imited

: (a) ead ree older Wire( 無鉛錫線 ); (b) 50% ead lat older ticks (50 力扁錫條 );and (c) ilver razing ticks ( 銀焊支 ). 12.

16 (b) 50% ead lat older ticks are manufactured under the brand name of "". he country of origin is the nited ingdom; and (c) ilver razing ticks are manufactured under the brand name of "hessco". he country of origin is the nited ingdom. 14. attach hereto the specifications provided by the manufacturers of the abovementioned soldering materials for the reference of the ommission marked as ttachments, and respectively. 15. he prices of the oldering aterials fluctuated during the relevant period from 2006 to shall draw the ommission's attention to the purchase documents below on which the prices for each particular transaction are set out. rea 3: identify the contact person(s) in each of the ain ontractors, ub-ontractors, ub-ub-ontractors who contacted and placed orders with your ompany for soldering materials in respect of the nvolved states ("such contact persons ); 16. he contact persons in respect of the nvolved states are as follows:- nvolved states (1)n hau state (2)hing o state (3)hoi ook state (7)ung om state (8)ai hing state (9)ung Wui state ontact ersons ing op -urchasing epartment r. ee (um ee), r. ok (Wing ing) ing op -urchasing epartment/ r. iu(ang ee) olden ay -urchasing epartment o iu ee -urchasing epartment olden ay -urchasing epartment (10)Wing heong state olden ay -urchasing epartment (11)wai uen state o iu ee -urchasing epartment ranscript by orporation sia, imited

attach hereto the specifications provided by the manufacturers of the abovementioned soldering materials for the reference of the ommission marked as ttachments, and respectively. 15.

17 rea 4: explain and describe the means by which orders were placed by such contact persons and the steps and procedures by which the soldering materials were supplied by your ompany and delivered to the purchaser after an order was placed; 17. rders were placed by such contact persons either by sending written urchase rders or verbally. 18. he usual method for placing orders is by sending written urchase rders. he steps and procedures for supply and delivery of orders placed by sending written urchase rders are as follows: (a) such contact persons placed orders by sending written urchase rders to the ompany specifying: (i) the products they wanted; (ii) the quantities; (iii) the prices; and (iv) the places and dates of deliveries; (b) the ompany would deliver the ordered products to the places as directed by the customers on the designated dates with the relevant elivery otes; (c) the representatives of the customers on the sites would sign the elivery otes in triplicate confirming the receipt of the ordered products; (d) the customers would retain a copy of the elivery otes for their record; and (e) the ompany then prepared the nvoices according to the copies of elivery otes it retained and send the nvoices together with a copy of the elivery otes to the customers monthly for payment. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

he usual method for placing orders is by sending written urchase rders.

18 19. n some cases, however, such contact persons would place orders verbally. he steps and procedures for supply and delivery of orders placed verbally are as follows: (a) uch contact persons made telephone calls to the ompany asking for supply of products with particulars set out in paragraph 18(a) above; (b) the particulars of the products they ordered would be set out m the ompany's elivery otes and nvoices; (c) we prepared the nvoices together with elivery otes for verbal orders and followed the steps 18(b), (c) and (d) above; and (d) the customers were usually requested to make payment upon delivery. nvolved states ontact ersons eans of lacing rders (1)n hau state ing op - urchasing epartment (2)hing o state r. ee (um ee), r. ok (Wing ing) (3)hoi ook state ing op - urchasing epartment/ r. iu (ang ee) (7)ung om state olden ay - urchasing epartment (8)ai hing state o iu ee - urchasing epartment (9)ung Wui state olden ay - urchasing epartment (10)Wing heong state olden ay - urchasing epartment urchase rders erbally urchase rders and erbally urchase rders urchase rders urchase rders urchase rders ranscript by orporation sia, imited

out in paragraph 18(a) above; (b) the particulars of the products they ordered would be set out m the ompany's elivery otes and nvoices; (c) we prepared the nvoices together with elivery otes for

19 (11)wai uen state o iu ee - urchasing epartment urchase rders rea 5: identify and adduce all purchase orders, invoices, receipts, delivery notes, certificates of quality or origin and other information showing the brand names, country of origin, types and specifications of the soldering materials acquired by the ain ontractors, ub-ontractors, ub-ub-ontractors and any other person(s) who contacted and placed orders with your ompany for soldering materials for use in the nvolved states or otherwise during the period between 2006 and dentify and confirm (a) which of the soldering materials supplied under the purchase orders, invoices, receipts, delivery notes and information as adduced were lead-free soldering materials and (b) which ones contained lead; 20. espite the best effort of our staff to retrieve as many documents relating to the nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water as possible, due to the long lapse of time and removal of storage places, we are unable to produce all documents relating to the supply of soldering materials to the nvolved states. 21. ccording to the documents our staff was able to retrieve and the records kept by the ompany, we have prepared ttachment, which consists of 8 appendices in which we have set out the relevant information in tables and attached copies of documents we could find as follows: nvolved states (1) n hau state (2) hing o state (3) hoi ook state (7) ung om state (8) ai hing state ppendix ranscript by orporation sia, imited

contacted and placed orders with your ompany for soldering materials for use in the nvolved states or otherwise during the period between 2006 and 2014.

20 (9) ung Wui state (10) Wing heong state (11) wai uen state rea 6: according to information available to the ommission, some of the ain ontractors contracted to use "ry" 99 ead free solder wire ("ry older Wire"). dentify the transactions in which ry older Wire was supplied by your ompany for use in the nvolved states and confirm the country of origin of such materials. lease also confirm (a) whether ry older Wire is produced by countries other than the olland and (b) whether your ompany has acquired ry older Wire from countries other than olland and if so, identify such countries. 22. refer to paragraphs 11 to 15 hereinabove. 23. he ompany has supplied ry older Wire to 4 nvolved states, namely, hing o state, ung om state, ai hing state and wai uen state. he country of origin of ry older Wire was the etherlands (i.e. olland). 24. cannot confirm that there are countries other than the etherlands which also produced ry older Wire. 25. confirm that the ompany has acquired ry older Wire only from the etherlands during the relevant period from 2006 to hereby produce one sample of each type of soldering materials mentioned above marked ttachment. wing to the bulkiness of the products, it is impossible to produce the wrappers intact. 27. confirm that the contents of this statement are true to the best of my knowledge and belief. igned by: ranscript by orporation sia, imited

lease also confirm (a) whether ry older Wire is produced by countries other than the olland and (b) whether your ompany has acquired ry older Wire from countries other than olland and if so, identify

21 W a ing ated the 26 th day of ovember 2015 周先生 :here is a statement of truth: believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true and the opinion expressed in it is honestly held. W a ing ated the 26 th day of ovember 2015 問 : 周家平先生問 : 係剛剛所讀出嚟嘅 -- 你嘅供人口供, 你記得嗎? 答 : 唔, 記得問 : 出聲, 請出聲答 : 記得問 : 你願意將你呢份嘅證人口供呈堂作為你一個主問嘅證供, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

22 答 : 可以問 :... 你願意嘛? 答 : 願意周先生 : 法官閣下, 我方冇其他主問主席 : 唔該, 請坐周先生 : 周家平先生可以接受其他嘅律師嘅盤問主席 : 唔該周先生 : 係, 多謝主席許偉強先生盤問問 : 周生, 我係代表... 答 : 我使唔使企喺度? 問 : 唔需要答 : 哦, 唔好意思我人生第一次, 唔好意思問 : 周生, 我就代表委員會嘅答 : 係, 係問 : 就有啲問題即係想同你討論一下答 : 好問 : 首先就住嗰個背景, 一啲背景資料都想搞清楚先答 : 唔, 好問 : 我想問一問你, 就係呢一個雋景建材公司喇, 就係你自己成立嘅公司 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

23 嚟㗎, 係咪呀? 問 : 我想知道係幾時成立? 答 :1998 年問 :1998 問 : 唔之前你係做咩嘢工作㗎? 答 : 之前呀? 問 : 係, 即係成立雋景建材之前? 答 : 我之前都做咗好多份工作問 : 係有冇從事過水喉行業嘅工作? 答 : 水喉行業, 即係你落地盤嗰啲? 問 : 係答 : 冇問 : 冇答 : 完全冇問 : 有冇接觸過係水喉行業嘅工作呀, 之前? 答 : 都冇問 : 都冇, 唔之前有冇喺即係建築業做過? 答 : 都冇問 : 都冇, 唔你之前係做咩嘢㗎, 成立雋景之前? 答 : 即係做 sales ranscript by orporation sia, imited

24 問 : 唔答 : 唔, 或者做執貨問 : 邊方面嘅 sales? 吓? 答 : 執貨, 之前做執貨問 : 執貨問 : 唔 ales 係邊方面 sales 呀? 答 : 賣嗰啲去水膠喉嗰啲問 : 去水膠喉? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 好我哋知道就係呢個 -- 另外問一問你先, 就係雋景除咗你係老闆之外, 仲有冇其他人? 答 : 仲有我太太, 我太太問 : 你太太答 : 唔問 : 即係你兩位都係公司董事, 係咪呀? 問 : 股東都係你哋兩位? 問 : 唔, 好公司有幾多人呀? 答 : 十幾個問 : 十幾個 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

25 答 : 唔知十四定十五, 我都唔 -- 好似十 -- 咁上下問 : 唔答 : 應該十六, 係咪呀? 我唔記得咗問 : 有幾多員工係即係負責幫你手? 例如當採... 答 : 基本上啲員工都幫緊我手問 : 唔係, 即係你聽埋我講先答 : 係, 吓? 問 : 即係我話幾多員工係幫你手呢, 係負責例如如果啲你嘅客戶要採購嗰啲貨物嘅答 : 我諗基本上起碼都有 -- 我諗起碼六至八個, 最少都問 : 六至八個, 係咪呀? 答 : 係呀, 唔問 : 即係負責落 order 嗰啲, 唔答 : 落 order, 你計唔計埋執貨呢? 問 : 執貨嗰啲佢唔幫手落 order, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔計, 咁得, 可以, 可以, 可以問 : 即係執貨嗰啲就唔會幫手落 order 㗎嘛? 答 : 我唔知喎, 我唔會理解, 以為執貨問 : 我知, 但係你嘅意思係咪即係執貨嗰啲同事, 就唔會幫手落 order 嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔會, 絕對唔會, 呢個問 : 得, 明白落 order 就六至八個喥? 答 : 係, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

26 問 : 好我哋知道, 即係雋景建材都係就住一啲即係五金材料呢就供應嘅, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 係問 : 我哋知道就有造食水喉嘅五金材料, 就造水喉嘅五金材料喇, 呢個你哋有供應嘅? 答 : 我真係唔係好清楚, 呢樣嘢問 : 唔係好清楚咩嘢話? 答 : 唔係好清楚係 -- 譬如 -- 你講多一次, 我唔理解你講乜, 唔好意思問 : 唔, 好, 你供應嘅材料呢, 有包括做水喉嘅材料㗎嘛? 即係包括做水喉嘅五金材料, 呢樣好... 答 : 我諗有嘅應該, 概括應該有嘅, 正常都係問 : 係即係你一定 -- 即係你做咗 -- 做咗廿幾三十年你一定知你自己公司賣咩嘢答 : 係, 咁你用喺邊度, 我都唔知佢用 -- 有機會你話咁我哋 -- 事關我係好廣泛嘅嘢, 我唔係淨係單一項目問 : 我哋一步一步嚟, 周生答 : 嗄, 嗄, 嗄唔好意思問 : 我而家唔係講緊嗰啲材料最後攞嚟作咩嘢用途, 唔好去諗呢樣嘢先答 : 我知道, 明白, 唔好意思, 唔好意思問 : 唔好去諗呢樣嘢先答 : 明白, 唔好意思問 : 你嘅材料, 供應嘅材料賣出街嘅,... 問 :... 包括做水喉嘅材料, 啱吖? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

27 答 : 係, 啱問 : 唔, 好我想問下呢, 即係例如我哋講緊做水喉材料, 我哋都見到你哋啲單入面, 都有介紹過有啲咩嘢材料問 : 類似呢啲咁嘅五金材料, 我哋所講, 如果我哋講香港九龍新界, 會有幾多間公司會賣類似咁嘅材料呀? 答 : 我話你聽, 每一間五金舖都會賣問 : 每一間五金舖? 答 : 以我所知問 : 唔答 : 個比例應該起碼超過 80 個 per cent 以上問 : 超過答 : 即係賣五金問 : 即係賣五金嘅舖頭,... 問 :... 有 80 per cent 以上... 答 : 都會賣問 :... 都會賣你哋嗰啲材料? 答 : 係, 而家賣, 係, 係, 係問 : 係咪咁嘅意思呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 唔你做咗 -- 由 1998 年開始喇,... 答 :98, 係, 係, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

28 問 :... 即係做咗都... 答 : 十七年十八年問 :... 即係十七 -- 十七十八年喇問 : 你都做過好多房署嘅工程, 係咪呀? 即係有關房署嗰個工程? 答 : 係有問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 有問 : 唔記唔記得, 即係有涉及嘅房署工程呢, 大概有幾多個項目, 你接觸過嘅, 咁多年? 答 : 我真係 -- 你叫我而家講呀講唔到, 唔記得到咁多問 : 唔係好記得? 答 : 嗄, 嗄問 : 但係都好多, 你記得就? 答 : 我諗都有嘅問 : 唔答 : 你話好多就唔知, 事關唔係我哋 -- 唔係一定幫我哋問 : 係答 : 嗄, 唔問 : 超過十個喇? 答 : 我 -- 應該有 -- 呢度都 -- 應該有問 : 超過二十個? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

29 答 : 二十個, 我唔知, 真係返去睇下先知問 : 唔知, 好, 唔緊要我想問一問你, 我哋都知道你同幾間即係做水喉個供應商,... 答 : 係, 唔問 :... 咁就都有生意來往答 : 唔, 係問 : 咁我哋知道 -- 我而家噏幾個名畀你聽, 我就逐個逐個會問下你好唔好? 答 : 好呀, 好問 : 首先何標記喇, 係咪呀? 有喇, 有同佢哋有來往喇答 : 係, 有, 唔問 : 金日? 問 : 有喇, 係咪? 答 : 有問 : 咁就呢個恆利? 答 : 有問 : 有喇永興? 答 : 有問 : 有喇問一問你先, 同何標記做生意做咗幾耐? 答 : 我 1998 年... 問 : 大概答 :... 成立, 我諗大概係十 -- 我諗十幾年喇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

30 問 : 十幾年喇吓? 答 : 嗄, 嗄問 : 何文標就話即係好早期已經識你, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 即係你未做雋景之前... 答 : 我做執貨已經識我問 : 即係以前曾經做過同事, 係咪呀? 答 : 冇問 : 冇答 : 絕對冇問 : 哦, 喺咩嘢情況下識㗎? 答 : 都話我本身一間五金塑膠廠地下執貨, 佢啤嘅產品係水喉配件問 : 係答 : 佢係攞貨, 攞膠配件, 我認識佢但係唔係深交, 嗰陣時問 : 明白, 明白答 : 一個 -- 我只係一個執貨仔問 : 明白即係話何標記同你哋雋景有生意來往都有超過十年? 答 : 絕對有問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 好咁問一問你, 例如何標記嚟講, 即係有十年以上嘅生意來往喇答 : 係, 唔, 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

31 問 : 一般來講何標記同你哋訂貨嘅, 都會同你本人訂貨嘛? 答 : 經我又有, 或者畀同事亦都有問 : 唔答 : 事關有啲產品, 事關我哋好多種產品, 有啲唔需要去 follow 問 : 係答 : 有啲畀小姐 fax 過去 -- 急嘅, 就小姐去打單問 : 明白答 : 事關我哋有個 price list 喺度, 知道產品名稱, 佢就可以 follow 到, 去做到嘢問 : 明白答 : 我每日工作都好繁忙問 : 明白, 好答 : 唔, 希望你明白問 : 有時就係你, 有時就係你同事, 可以咁講? 答 : 機會唔係多喇, 譬如有啲 -- 睇咩嘢產品問 : 唔, 好何標記例如同你哋訂貨嗰陣時, 你記唔記得大概何標記係邊幾位職員會負責同你哋訂貨? 答 : 即係點解呢, 嗰段時間佢亦都有個 -- 流動性都幾大嘅, 採購有段時間問 : 唔答 : 我直情唔係好記得問 : 你而家完全冇印象, 邊幾位? 答 : 我真係唔記得, 時關我太多嘢你話好似而家呢刻梗係知 -- 記得梗係趙小姐嗰啲喇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

32 問 : 趙小姐? 答 : 嗄, 嗄, 嗰啲問 : 係答 : 你話之前嗰啲我都 -- 有時真係唔記得咗都唔定問 : 趙小姐就記得, 係咪呀? 問 : 唔答 : 而家呢個係趙小姐, 我梗係記得問 : 好陳小華記唔記得呀? 答 : 陳小華, 我記得 -- 印象好似係 -- 嗰個係咪啟晴邨嗰個... 問 : 唔答 :... 管工呀? 問 : 係呀答 : 應該係問 : 佢都有同你哋接觸過, 係咪呀? 答 : 有接觸問 : 唔, 訂貨? 答 : 我哋接觸係咩嘢原因呢, 我本身間公司成立係主要做喉碼嘅問 : 係答 : 喉碼就不同 size, 所以要接觸點解呢, 可能有啲設計唔同咗, 我要同佢要探討, 討論呢個問題問 : 唔, 明白 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

33 答 : 有接觸, 呢個就問 : 即係你同阿陳小華嘅接觸呢就係講緊啲喉... 答 : 係主要關於工作上嘅嘢, 係問 : 就係講緊一啲喉碼 size, 可能會討論嘅? 答 : 係嘞, 我哋嗰個公司成立之前呢, 係主要做喉碼問 : 唔至於陳小華, 佢有冇話同你哋公司訂貨, 呢樣嘢嘅? 答 : 冇, 冇, 絕對問 : 就冇嘅, 係咪呀? 好答 : 一定要經過採購部問 : 好金日呢, 金日做咗幾耐? 答 : 金日, 我都同何先生差唔多問 : 吓? 都係差唔多? 答 : 都係十幾年問 : 都係十幾年嘞, 嗄答 : 係, 都十幾年問 : 好金日嘅職員同你哋訂貨嘅,... 問 :... 記唔記得係邊幾位? 答 : 林小姐又有莫小姐又有問 : 林小姐莫小姐, 係咪? 答 : 係嘞, 嗄, 唔問 : 最主要呢兩位? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

34 答 : 嗄問 : 好咁恆利蕭健煌先生你識唔識呀? 答 : 識嘅問 : 唔答 : 唔係太深囉呢個問 : 唔, 係生意來往咗幾耐呀同佢? 答 : 唔係多問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 唔係太耐問 : 幾年? 答 : 咁絕對有問 : 有, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 超過五年時間? 答 : 我諗都係咁上下, 未必足喇問 : 好答 : 你問得咁詳細, 我都要睇番紀錄問 : 好呀佢都會親自同你哋公司訂貨? 問 : 係咪呀? 永興莫海光先生呢, 都認識喇? 問 : 認識 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

35 答 : 係咪呀? 問 : 唔答 : 咁有冇都係超過五年生意來往? 問 : 有嘅, 有嘅答 : 都有? 問 : 唔, 係答 : 佢都有親自同你哋訂貨? 問 : 係答 : 係咪呀? 問 : 唔答 : 好, 唔該晒問 : 唔使我想問一問就係 -- 即係你都知道我啱啱講嗰幾間公司喇答 : 唔, 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 佢哋都係做呢個水喉分判商, 呢樣嘢你好清楚嘅, 係咪? 答 : 應該清楚, 係問 : 你係清楚嘅? 答 : 清楚問 : 唔我想問一問你, 我哋縮窄下個討論範圍先答 : 好問 : 我哋而家知道, 最主要我哋討論嘅嘢, 係講緊一啲錫料, 或者焊料問 : 我想先問一問你, 就係你幾時第一次接觸無鉛焊料呢樣嘢? 幾時知 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

36 道? 答 : 其實呢, 無鉛, 我真係唔記得咗, 我諗零幾年囉問 : 零... 答 : 唔知零幾 -- 到幾多嘞, 我真係唔清楚問 : 零幾年如果我咁籠統啲講, 知道咗大概都有十年, 可唔可以咁講? 答 : 我諗有喇, 而家都 16 年, 應該有喇, 嗄問 : 唔, 好呀, 唔該當時係喺咩嘢情況之下知悉呢一個無鉛焊料呢樣嘢? 答 : 首先我希望你明白我公司成立個原因係乜嘢係客人要求我哋用咩嘢產品, 我哋先去同佢搵即係有客要求我哋要攞呢隻嘢產品, 我哋去搜集或者搵即係唔係我哋去攞呢件產品賣畀你, 而係好多客人要求, 問我哋攞呢啲, 有冇呢啲產品, 我哋先去搵問 : 周生呀答 : 唔問 : 我而家唔係講緊 -- 都係 -- 即係你將你嘅集中力呢,... 答 : 我可能我理解唔係好清楚問 :... 集中喺我個問題先答 : 好問 : 唔係話你畀, 定係人哋問, 定係點好簡單嘅問題, 喺咩嘢情況之下, 第一次認識無鉛焊料, 就咁簡單啫答 : 就係個客人要求我哋選擇呢樣, 咪認識佢囉問 : 客人要求你哋用呢隻? 答 : 係, 係問 : 記唔記得係邊個客? 答 : 我諗出面 -- 點解我哋都好多嗰啲判頭, 我哋 -- 有時真係唔記得咗, 你 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

37 話邊個我真係唔記得咗而家問 : 唔緊要, 唔緊要, 唔緊要客人要求你, 話畀無鉛錫線佢, 咁呀? 答 : 唔係, 佢要求話卷裝嘅啫問 : 哦問 : 佢直情畀咗卷裝你睇呀? 答 : 或者搵下呢隻有冇囉, 係, 係問 : 咪住先, 咪住先答 : 係, 係問 : 客人話我要求卷裝嘅錫線? 答 : 係, 或者畀個辦我哋, 有權, 係, 有問 : 唔佢有冇畀過呢隻嘢你睇, 嗰陣時? 答 : 有機會有, 但係我唔記得咗問 : 唔, 好咁嗰個客人, 即係問你哋攞呢個辦又好, 或者叫你哋去搵又好, 係做緊咩嘢工程㗎嗰陣時? 答 : 有時我哋亦都唔會去問佢咁仔細, 問得佢咁清楚問 : 唔答 : 只係我角度係, 我開呢間公司, 客人搵乜, 我就去同佢搵咗, 嗰刻就去同佢搵嘅啫問 : 好呀, 唔客人搵又好, 你自己搵又好咁你都會即係要透過供應商介紹一隻物料畀你㗎, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 唔當時即係你話去搵呢隻物料嘅時候, 都會有同供應商嗰啲 agent, 或者啲 sales, 都有接觸過, 去傾下呢隻物料㗎嘛? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

38 答 : 都唔會深入去傾, 我只係... 問 : 唔好講深唔深入先答 : 係, 會傾問 : 有冇傾過? 答 : 有傾過問 : 係傾過嘅時候, 我想問下, 例如嗰個 sales 同你喂, 周生, 討論下呢隻焊料咁樣佢會攞呢一隻上嚟畀你睇, 係咪呀? 答 : 正常我 -- 冇問 : 冇嘅, 冇嘅乜嘢冇攞上嚟嘅? 答 : 冇問 : 冇嘅好, 我又問下你, 你第一次見到呢隻綠色一卷卷, 我哋而家知道係 Y 呢個無鉛錫線,... 答 : 嗄, 嗄, 係, 係, 係問 :... 大概係幾時喥? 答 : 我諗超過十年以上問 : 超過十年以上? 我可唔可以咁講, 係咪都係話 -- 你啱啱講畀我聽話, 有客人就要求你去話喂, 用呢隻, 咁你去搵, 係咪呀? 問 : 去搜集, 係, 係答 : 一定係有個途徑... 問 : 有答 :... 搵到返嚟, 你第一次睇到㗎? 問 : 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

39 答 : 係咪呀? 問 : 唔答 : 我想問下你第一次睇到呢隻嘅時候, 係咪嗰啲供應商嘅 sales 畀你睇? 問 : 唔係, 我哋自己走去問佢, 邊度有得賣, 去嗰度問答 : 自己走去問佢話 -- 等等先吓問 : 即係搜 -- 問下啲行家或者之類答 : 咪住先, 自己走去問佢, 佢係邊個呀? 問 : 即係呢個產品嘅供應商答 : 產品供應商, 即係你知道佢係呢隻產品嘅供應商, 係咪呀? 問 : 係, 係答 : 你問佢話啊, 點樣可以攞到返嚟呀? 咁呀, 係咪呀? 問 : 係, 係, 係答 : 咁佢攞嚟畀你睇? 問 : 我要買呢隻就係咁, 佢好簡單咋嘛, 係答 : 咁佢攞嚟畀你睇喇跟住, 係咪呀? 問 : 咪落單答 : 我嘅意思係話, 你問佢邊度可以搵到呢啲問 : 係答 : 咁佢有畀你睇過㗎嘛, 呢隻, 係咪? 問 : 基本上你當 -- 有冇睇過呢, 我都唔記得 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

40 主席 : 周生, 你可唔可以坐番過少少嗰邊? 答 : 唔好意思, 對唔住主席 : 係, 因為我要... 答 : 哦, 唔好意思主席 : 唔答 : 我慣咗主席 : 係, 坐過... 答 :orry,sorry 主席 : 坐過啲答 : 好, 得主席 : 再坐過啲, 係答 : 好主席 : 得, 唔該答 : 唔好意思主席 : 唔問 : 其實我好想知道, 就係話當你第一次有機會睇到呢一隻綠色一卷卷, 我哋知道係無鉛焊料, 係邊個畀你睇嘅? 答 : 我唔記得咗吖嘛, 答咗問 : 唔, 但係你剛才就話係你問供應商,... 答 : 唔問 :... 係咪呀? 攞番黎? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

41 答 : 我跟住搵供應商囉問 : 係嘞咁會唔會係供應商畀你睇嘅呢? 答 : 係個客人攞畀我睇, 我跟住去搵供應商問 : 好主席 : 就同佢訂貨? 答 : 係嘞問 : 即係你而家記得就應該係個客人嗰度畀你睇嘞? 答 : 係, 係問 : 因為你之前話唔記得咗客人攞嚟嗰陣時有冇畀你睇過? 答 : 係客人攞畀我睇, 我先去搵供應商問 : 唔, 好答 : 唔問 : 等等答 : 以我記得就係問 : 好答 : 事關太耐我真係唔係好記得問 : 冇問題答 : 見諒問 : 唔, 咁你就攞去畀供應商? 答 : 唔係, 搵供應商 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

42 問 : 搵供應商? 答 : 搵供應商問 : 唔好嘞, 咁你搵供應商嗰陣時, 你點同佢形容你要啲咩嘢物料呀? 答 : 事關呢隻產品喺香港市場已經有供應商存在, 咪搵到佢個電話咪同佢落 order 囉問 : 我再問多你一次問 : 搵供應商嘅時候, 點樣同佢講, 形容呢一隻物料, 你要啲乜? 答 : 咪話英國嘅 Y 嘅無鉛錫線, 就咁樣問佢囉問 : 好呀答 : 唔問 : 邊個供應商呀? 答 : 好似叫做德堅呀, 冇記錯問 : 唔主席 : 叫做咩嘢話? 答 : 德堅呀主席 : 點寫呀? 答 : 哦, 寫就 -- 我唔識英文, 唔好意思, 我執貨仔出身, 我讀書係讀到小學㗎咋主席 : 德咩嘢話? 許偉強先生 : 德堅呀? 答 : 嗄, 嗄 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

43 許偉強先生 : 中文, 你都知道佢中文名㗎, 有中文名嘅? 答 : 我淨係識中文名, 你叫我譯英文, 我真係唔識主席 : 哦, 德... 許偉強先生 : 我唔係問你英文, 即係中文名你知道係叫德堅? 答 : 係呀, 好 -- 係許偉強先生 : 即係德就係... 答 : 我印象中係許偉強先生 : 哦問 : 即係德就德高望重個德? 答 : 係啩, 係問 : 堅就堅強個堅咁樣? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 係咪? 好你當時同佢講話要呢一隻嘅時候呢, 即係你話呢隻焊料嘅時候呢, 有冇特別同佢指明係無鉛咁話? 答 : 我已經同佢講咗呢隻嘢問 : 你有冇講牌子呀? 答 : Y 吖嘛主席 : Y, 嗄問 : 有講牌子呀? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

44 答 : 嗄問 : 好, 唔該咁我想問一問你嘞, 就係你初初接觸呢一隻誒物料喇, 跟住就之後喇, 我想問下你有冇機會呢, 即係睇過啲說明呀? 即係嗰啲冊 -- 嗰個... 答 : 首先... 問 :... 材料嘅說明呀? 答 : 首先我唔識英文喇, 第一, 第二我亦都喺我嚟講, 我都唔係好認真去睇囉問 : 明白答 : 唔問 : 你接觸 -- 第一次接觸呢個 Y 呢個綠色一卷卷嘅時候呢, 有冇同時間接觸呢一隻黃色一罌罌嘅松香膏呀? 答 : 係, 有嘅問 : 係咪呀? 唔, 一齊知道嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 係咪呀? 你當時呢, 你嘅認知呢, 係咪呢兩隻嘢呢, 一齊用㗎? 問 : 唔, 邊個話畀你聽㗎? 答 : 係啲水喉師傅講嘅問 : 水喉師傅? 問 : 喺咩嘢情況之下同你討論話, 呢兩隻嘢一齊用咁呀? 答 : 咩嘢... 問 : 喺咩嘢情況之下呢? 啲水喉師傅呢, 同你話, 呢兩隻嘢要一齊用嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

45 答 : 佢當時訂貨同我講亦都會一齊用囉問 : 唔, 即係呢個都係講緊十幾年前嘅事喇, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係呀, 即係問番我回帶, 我真係未必記到問 : 好呀, 冇問題, 冇問題我都係問你大約嗰個情況嘅啫答 : 係, 係, 係, 真係, 真係問 : 唔, 好我想問一問你呢, 你知唔知 Y 呢隻牌子呀, 呢隻牌子呀,... 問 :... 有供應無鉛同埋有鉛嘅焊料㗎, 你知唔知呀? 答 : 知問 : 唔, 你知唔知道 Y 呢隻牌子呢, 無鉛就係綠色嘅, 你知道 -- 我哋知道呢... 問 :... Y 係咪有一隻有鉛嘅錫料呢, 係黃色㗎? 答 : 係而家知問 : 而家至知? 問 : 幾時喥知道呀? 答 : 正常就已經有生產, 但係我係至呢個委員 -- 即係發生事故之後, 我再認真睇係已經係有呢隻黃, 係有嘅問 : 好呀, 唔, 得答 : 之前應該有生產嘅, 我哋冇去訂購問 : 好呀, 明白或者即係呢 -- 當時個紀錄呢, 雖然我知道你唔係好睇得懂英文喇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

46 答 : 係, 絕對係問 : 我就想你睇一睇有一張係講個 Y 產品嗰啲說明嘅啫答 : 唔問 : 就係喺答 : 邊度呀? 問 :15.2,38811 答 : 哦, 唔該係, 係, 係, 好, 點呀? 問 :38811 呢, 就我解畀你聽喇答 : 好呀問 : 唔緊要, 周生答 : 唔好意思問 : 咁就有個 solder wire 嘅, 即係都係講緊錫線喇問 : 咁佢呢度嘅解釋呢就係有鉛同埋無鉛既 solder wire, 呢個文件首先呢, 佢係講緊 Y 呢隻牌子, 就即係一啲做水喉嘅產品嘅問 : 咁就你見到 Y 嗰個字喇, 呢度都有個 Y 個字喺度答 : 係, 我最識呢個㗎咋問 : 係嘞, 得, 唔緊要, 咁有啲圖喺度, 我哋都唔需要考究住嘅答 : 唔問 : 咁呀喺個 solder wire 嗰啲錫線嗰度呢, 就咁嘅, 佢就話呢, 就可以即係簡單地咁樣分喇, 就係話如果綠色一卷卷呢, 就係呢叫做無鉛, lead free ranscript by orporation sia, imited

47 答 : 唔問 : 如果黃色嘅話呢, 就係有鉛嘅, 我剛才問你就係呢個問題嘞, 就係話, 你話呢最近先至知道, 原來 Y 都係有有鉛嘅呢一隻錫線嘅咁問 : 我想問下最近你係大概係幾時喥呀? 答 : 啱啱鉛水事件之後先知囉問 : 哦, 之後吖嘛? 答 : 答咗你喇, 係囉, 係囉問 : 唔, 喺咩嘢情況下知道, 原來有兩隻個喎, 咁呀? 答 : 唔係, 我再 -- 我哋公司再仔細去 -- 去 -- 自己都要去檢討下問 : 唔答 : 知 -- 點 -- 即係我都要了解下多啲野囉自己都要, 所以咪清楚啲囉問 : 要了解多啲呀? 答 : 唔, 所以我完全冇睇過個黃嗰個卷裝架, 我係 -- 我冇睇過主席 : 未見過? 答 : 未見過許偉強先生 : 未見過, 好答 : 我未見過問 : 好呀, 咁你係誒即係點樣... 答 : 即係我睇番個 detail 先睇到啲嘢, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

48 問 : 係, 我想知道係邊個話畀你知, 原來 Y 都有隻係有鉛嘅呢樣嘢呀? 答 : 誒認真啲再睇多次, 或者 catalogue 又好, 又去 -- 或者再問多其他啲人咪清楚問 : 睇 catalogue 就 --catalogue 英文㗎答 : 唔問 : 係咪? 答 : 嗄問 : 咁係你自己睇定係你叫啲職員幫你睇呀? 答 : 我哋有少同事都識英文嘅, 咁呀睇下啫問 : 唔, 咁係咪同事睇完啲英文 catalogue, 同你講番話, 老闆呀, 原來有 Y, 有鉛嘅焊料個喎? 答 : 我唔記得咗有冇咁樣, 但係我照我資訊係有嘅問 : 唔答 : 唔問 : 咁你話知道呢件事係邊個話畀你聽, 記唔記得呀? 答 : 我都唔係好記得問 : 唔係好記得, 好, 冇問題你一直以嚟, 如果我哋講 Y 嘅焊料呢, 鉛水事件之前,... 答 : 唔問 :... 就知道係淨係得呢隻嘅啫問 : 係咪呀? 綠色一卷卷 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

49 問 : 咁你亦都知道係無鉛嘅? 問 : 係咪呀? 咁我咁樣講啱唔啱呢, 就係你亦都知道做食水喉工程呢, 就要需要用呢一隻誒物料嘅答 : 唔知問 : 唔知? 答 : 唔知問 : 咁即係譬如你有咁多客戶係食水喉分判商, 佢同你訂貨呀答 : 唔問 : 咁你唔會去估計話, 呢隻物料你訂貨, 就係做食水喉工程嘅, 咁你呢樣嘢應該知, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔, 我唔知呀問 : 完全唔知? 答 : 唔知主席 : 再問多次個問題石先生 : 好呀問 : 你有咁多客戶, 係做食水喉嘅分判商答 : 唔問 : 佢又問你, 例如如果要訂呢一隻綠色一卷卷嘅答 : 唔問 : 咁你唔會去諗到話訂呢一隻嘅原因係攞嚟做食水喉嘅工作咩? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

50 答 : 唔知呀問 : 完全唔知呀? 答 : 唔知問 : 唔主席 : 唔係, 我想問一問, 你當然你有好多唔同嘅客喇, 係咪? 答 : 係, 唔主席 : 咁有啲客, 當然你亦都未必真係知道佢個業務嘅性質答 : 唔主席 : 係咪? 主席 : 即係我明白答 : 唔主席 : 譬如好簡單, 有一間何標記咁樣樣講喇, 係咪? 答 : 係, 唔主席 : 咁佢做好多政府嘅工程主席 : 又做好多房屋署嘅工程主席 : 即係我想問嘅問題就係話, 當然你譬如何標記突然之間打個電話嚟, 話譬如咁講,... 答 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

51 主席 :... 我要無鉛, 咁當然你唔知道佢實際上愛嚟做咩嘢嘢㗎喇, 係咪? 主席 : 不過個問題就係咁, 如果佢話要無鉛嘅, 咁你賣咗咁多年呢啲無鉛嘅錫線, 咁我諗你都會推論, 或者聯想到, 呢啲無鉛嘅錫線, 係有機會係愛嚟做食水喉嘅答 : 唔係囉, 份嘢都有講咗, 係有機會, 係喇主席 : 係喇, 因為嗰份嘢係講到明係愛嚟做食水吖嘛答 : 有機會食水, 或者有機會係畀淋花系統, 我唔知主席 :xactly 答 : 唔主席 : 咁即係換句話嚟講, 當嗰個人買無鉛錫線, 咁你嗰啲 -- 因為我哋知道你何標記其實係交過好多啲 brochure 或者啲 literature 呢係經何標記交上去畀房署審批㗎嘛答 : 唔, 唔主席 : 係咪? 咁你哋嗰啲咁嘅 brochure,literature, 開宗明義就係話, 呢啲就係愛嚟做食水嘅, 因為可以... 答 : 即係我唔係好理解正話嗰個英文係點解, 唔好意思主席 : 吓? 答 : 你正話講咩嘢咩嘢, 嗰個... 許偉強先生 : 單張主席 : 嗰啲 -- 嗰啲傳單呀, 嗰啲文 -- 嗰啲... 答 : 文件? 主席 : 文件喇, 係咪? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

52 主席 : 啱唔啱呀? 主席 : 你做 3 分銷商㗎嘛, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係主席 : 你賣好多 3 嘢㗎喇答 : 我哋都係賣一兩種產品嘅主席 : 係咩? 答 : 唔係所有產品, 係一隻兩隻產品主席 : 係, 繼續, 唔好理嘞許偉強先生 : 好主席 : 咁繼續我就想問你, 咁你如果何標記嚟問你攞焊料, 咁當然你唔會估佢究竟愛嚟做咩嘢㗎, 係咪先? 不過如果佢 order 綠色嘅無鉛焊料, 咁相信某程度上, 好大程度上就係愛嚟做食水喇答 : 你可以咁諗法, 係主席 : 係咪? 主席 : 咁如果佢話 order 一隻唔係無鉛嘅焊料, 咁當然你唔會估佢做咩嘢喇, 佢可能做停車場, 可能愛嚟淋花答 : 唔, 唔主席 : 係咪咁嘅意思呀? 主席 : 係囉, 咁你直接答就得㗎喇答 : 係囉 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

53 主席 : 係答 : 唔該晒問 : 你就話, 如果你話好細節啲咁去講呢, 即係你買 -- 例如供應一隻畀某一個供應商答 : 唔, 唔問 : 唔係, 畀某一個客戶答 : 唔問 : 咁你就唔會去問, 去特別話你要呢隻嘢攞嚟做乜嘅, 係咪? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 但係籠統啲嚟講, 呢一隻物料, 你知咗十幾年嘞答 : 唔問 : 係咪? 你嘅知道佢係可以攞嚟做食水喉嘅用途, 呢樣嘢你冇爭議㗎? 答 : 我 -- 我都重申講多次, 我唔知佢 -- 我唔知係唔係可 -- 咩嘢 -- 死嘞, 唔識講添主席 : 佢如果攞嚟淋花嘅, 你亦都耐佢唔何, 啱唔啱? 不過... 答 : 係呀, 我都唔可以阻止佢㗎嘛主席 : 不過... 答 : 即係我唔可以 control 佢, 去控制用喺邊度主席 : 係, 我知, 不過, 不過呀答 : 唔好意思, 我人生大事主席 : 不過佢用嚟做食水喉嘅機會係咪遠遠超過愛嚟做淋花呢? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

54 答 : 我哋好... 主席 : 你唔 -- 你唔覺 -- 你唔好諗到我哋咁高深先得㗎, 唉許偉強先生 : 我哋而家唔係... 主席 : 你又唔好諗到我哋畀隻香蕉皮你踩先得㗎你... 答 :orry,sorry 主席 : 係許偉強先生 : 周生, 即係而家唔好去探討話你控唔控制到你啲客戶攞呢啲材料攞嚟做乜答 : 係, 係, 唔好意思許偉強先生 : 呢樣嘢我都明白, 你控制唔到嘅主席 : 你明唔明呀? 答 : 明主席 : 你自己喺你嘅證人口供嗰度講, 話講埋畀我哋聽, 我哋個委員會呢又唔可以民事上高, 又唔可以刑事上高, 咁你咁驚做乜嘢啫, 係咪? 答 : 壓力好大呀呢輪主席 : 係, 我都知壓力大, 係咪, 咁你壓力大, 咁你咪講畀我哋聽囉, 講咗之後, 你嗰啲 counsellor 會話, 即係嗰啲專家會話畀你聽, 講咗出嚟就會減壓㗎喇嘛答 : 多謝, 多謝主席 : 係咪呀? 問 : 再問番你答 : 係, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

55 問 : 你控制唔到你啲客戶點樣去做嗰啲物料問 : 認識咗呢隻物料十幾年, 綠色一卷卷嘅問 : Y 無鉛焊料問 : 我問題好簡單, 就係你知道呢一隻材料, 呢隻物料係可以用嚟做食水答 : 知喉嘅工作嘅, 呢樣你知喇, 肯定? 問 : 知道喇, 好咁我想問下你就係, 例如如果你睇一睇, 你公司一啲嘅即係介紹嘅單張喇答 : 唔, 唔問 : 喺 15.2 答 : 係咪喺呢度? 講多次... 問 :38828 答 : 唔該晒問 : 呢個單張呢, 就係即係你哋雋景公司嘅單張嚟嘅答 : 唔問 : 就寫住就係話一啲其實介紹咗你哋其實參與過一啲咩嘢工程嘅項目嘅答 : 唔, 唔, 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 見到嗎? 答 : 係, 見到, 見到 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

56 問 : 嗄, 嗄, 咁呢個你都冇爭議就係, 即係呢個係你哋公司出㗎喇? 答 : 有 -- 唔係我哋公司出, 係提供, 提供主席 : 係吖, 你公司提供吖, 嗄, 繼續吖, 係答 : 提供石先生 : 提供, 係, 好主席 : 係問 : 咁就你公司提供嘅, 咁呢度就好白咁樣呢, 就好清楚咁樣講呢就介紹呢一個 Y 松香膏及無鉛錫線, 見到嗎? 答 : 見到問 : 係嘞, 咁入面呢, 亦都有講出話, 特別指出呢一啲房署及建築署項目, 咁誒寫住同埋嘅 project 咁喇答 : 唔問 : 咁嗰啲項目, 下面呢就列咗出嚟答 : 唔問 : 大概有啲咩嘢例子呀, 邊啲項目呀答 : 嗄問 : 周生你睇住先喇答 :38828, 係, 見到問 : 係嘞, 咁有啲項目喇, 我想問下你, 呢啲咁樣嘅單張介紹呢個 Y 松香膏及無鉛錫條, 亦都係有提及房署嘅工程嘅項目, 咁我想問下你嘞, 你本人呢, 應該都知道 Y 松香膏同埋無鉛錫線呢, 如果做房署個項目呢, 係適用嘅, 係咪? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

57 問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 即係你知道房署係會批呢隻物料嘅? 問 : 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 嗄, 我就想問一問你嘞, 你幾時開始知道呢, 係房署呢係會批呢啲物料㗎? 答 : 我唔記得咗問 : 唔, 係咪好耐喇都? 知道咗呢件事? 答 : 我諗係大概零幾年, 我真係唔知道零幾年囉問 : 哦, 即係如果粗略啲講, 就大概 10 年前喥? 答 : 我諗係咁上下喇問 : 係咁上下? 問 : 好, 唔該黎先生 : 我諗有睇呢一份 -- 呢一張紙呢, 係 2006 年係做嘅, 即係事實上你 2006 年呢已經做過呢啲嘅工程, 已經好清楚知道呢啲嘅物料呢, 係用㗎喇, 係咪? 黎先生 : 嗰陣嚟落下面睇嗰個日期,2006 年 12 月 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

58 答 : 唔黎先生 : 係咪? 黎先生 : 即係實際上 2006 年你已經好清晰知道... 答 : 我 -- 唔好意思, 你講晒先黎先生 :... Y 呢啲嘅物料, 同埋做過呢啲工程嘞, 起碼即係十幾 --10 年前有多答 : 我諗超過 10 年喇, 十一二年喥喇黎先生 : 嗄問 : 唔即係如果我咁問你呢, 就係話如果你第一次就住房署嘅工程, 佢係批呢個 Y 嘅無鉛焊料, 呢個情況嘅, 都會有超過 10 年嘅時候嘞? 答 : 如果睇呢個, 係問 : 好我咁問你呢, 就係譬如房署嘅工程呢, 如果我哋講緊焊料嘅, 即係焊料答 : 唔問 : 你 -- 我哋講緊呢 10 年嚟講, 你係咪淨係知道呢一隻綠色一卷卷, 係房署係適用㗎咋? 答 : 唔知主席 : 再問一次你嘅問題問 : 你係咪知道淨係得呢一隻綠色一卷卷嘅焊料係適用喺房署嘅項目呀? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

59 答 : 我估計可能仲有其他焊料會適合用㗎問 : 好呀, 咁我想問一問你嘞, 除咗呢一隻 Y, 綠色一卷卷嘅, 就住房署項目嚟講, 仲有邊啲牌子呢, 你覺得係適用房署個項目㗎? 答 : 喺我印象中我就唔知, 但係我喺 -- 我估計有機會有其他牌子可以用問 : 唔, 但係以你嚟講, 即係你會覺得例如就住你公司提供嘅呢啲單張呀咁喇, 你哋嗰啲單張呢, 就唔會去就住焊料呢, 房署嘅項目用嘅焊料呢, 去提其他牌子㗎, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔會問 : 唔淨係 sell 呢隻嘅啫? Y 無鉛錫 -- 係咪呀? 答 : 我係賣呢隻, 就 sell 呢隻問 : 好答 : 房署我就唔知問 : 好呀英國 50 力扁錫條幾時第一次知道呀? 答 : 其實 50 力係一個名稱問 : 係答 : 係喺市場好多年已經存在喺度問 : 喺咩嘢話? 主席 : 好多年呀? 答 : 好多年主席 : 唔許偉強先生 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

60 問 : 咁你都 -- 好多年, 即係超過 10 年㗎嘞? 答 : 超過問 : 唔主席 : 幾多 -- 幾多? 答 : 我諗起碼超過 -- 以我知道, 應該超過可能 30 年主席 : 超過 30 年許偉強先生 : 唔問 : 喺咩嘢情況之下第一次接觸到呢一隻 50 力條? 答 : 亦都係客人... 問 : 都係客人要求? 答 :... 要求我哋去賣, 我哋先去攞番嚟問 : 唔主席 : 係你打工嘅時候, 抑或... 答 : 不是, 我係開呢間公司, 先去做呢樣嘢, 同埋嗰陣時係訂唔係英國, 係香港製造, 或者甚至乎大陸生產嘅, 呢一個 50 力扁錫呢, 意思就係唔係牌子, 而係一個名稱嚟嘅啫主席 :50 力我明吖主席 : 咁英國有冇... 答 : 英國我意思話我哋英國生產咁解啫 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

61 主席 : 哦, 哦, 唔問 : 即係你就話你有接觸過啲英國生產, 亦都接觸過啲唔係英國生產嘅 50 力錫條? 答 : 係, 當時係喺香港採購, 用香港生產嘅問 : 香港嘅主席 : 呢個係你成立雋景之前已經知道㗎嘞? 答 : 有, 係主席 : 唔黎先生 : 但係你賣嗰啲喺邊度生產呀? 你賣嗰啲答 : 吓? 主席 : 你而家賣嗰隻呀黎先生 : 你賣嗰啲, 你而家賣嗰啲係邊度生產? 答 : 英國黎先生 : 英國, 即係你所有咁多年賣嘅都係英國生產? 答 : 唔係, 我創業嗰陣時係有啲係香港生產, 之後喺英國生產黎先生 : 哦答 : 唔問 : 咁你一開始即係賣呢一隻 50 力喇我哋講, 即係唔好講... 答 :50 力, 我可能個力我唔識英文, 以前就知道啲文法係用中文去代替英文㗎嘛 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

62 問 : 係, 冇問題答 : 嗄, 嗄問 : 即係你第一次去供應呢個 50 力, 香港生產又好, 外國生產又好喇答 : 唔問 :50 力, 當時呢, 你嘅客戶係做啲乜嘢工程嘅客戶嚟㗎? 答 : 唔, 我冇去理解佢做咩嘢工程問 : 哦, 好答 : 總之佢要攞十嘢我就畀佢問 : 唔如果我哋講番房署嘅工程項目喇答 : 唔問 : 你有冇聽過房署嘅工程項目呢,50 力呢一隻錫條呢, 係一隻即係房署會批嘅錫條呀? 答 : 唔知問 : 唔知? 冇聽過? 答 : 冇聽過問 : 唔好, 我想嗰啲名稱呢, 想同你探討一下, 睇一睇你證人口供 1 第 15 頁答 : 哦, 呢個問 :15 頁, 第 11 段答 : 哦, 唔好意思問 :11 段呢, 你就話你哋公司呢就有供應三種唔同種類嘅焊料答 : 唔問 : 就畀啲即係涉事嗰啲屋邨嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

63 答 : 唔, 係問 : 我想問一問呢就係, 首先有 lead free solder wire, 即係英文嗰度係咁寫,lead free solder wire 呢, 咁就係寫住 -- 中文寫住無鉛錫線嘅, 咁就另外英文有個 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks, 咁你就寫咗 50 力扁錫條嘅咁樣咁就另外就係有 silver brazing sticks 呀, 寫住銀焊支喇, 銀焊支我暫時唔同你討論住, 淨係講無鉛錫線同埋 50 力扁錫條呢兩樣嘢先無鉛錫線, 我想問下你, 就係呢一個係咪呢一隻 Y 嘅牌子, 佢呢一個 -- 有一個正式既稱呼嚟㗎? 無鉛錫線主席 : 正式嘅稱呼? 行頭係咁樣樣嘅稱呼, 係咪咁樣樣呀? 答 : 係嘞許偉強先生 : 即係佢嗰個供應商係咪咁樣稱呼呢隻牌子㗎? 答 : 供應商又好, 地盤啲工人亦好, 都係用呢個叫法, 我就因應嗰個叫法咁寫落去問 : 唔, 所以佢哋都會係直情講到明無鉛錫線嘅? 答 : 都未必係, 佢有啲可以寫高溫錫又唔定嘅問 : 係, 有高溫錫嘅答 : 係嘞問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 即係好 -- 你知道地盤好多叫法㗎嘛問 : 好答 : 唔問 : 如果咁講呢, 就係話, 高溫錫呢, 如果一般嚟講, 以你嘅認識, 關於呢啲材料呢 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

64 答 : 係, 我都係靠出面聽番嚟嘅問 : 係, 即係同人哋溝通呀, 返嚟知道係點嗌喇, 係咪? 答 : 嗄, 嗄問 : 一般嚟講呢, 我咁講你睇下同唔同意喇, 如果講緊錫線嘅話呢, 即係唔好理佢高溫低溫嘞答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 錫線呢就係講緊無鉛嘅, 咁樣同唔同意呀? 答 : 我理解, 係問 : 唔錫條呢就係講緊有鉛嘅答 : 條裝問 : 條狀嘅, 係咪? 問 : 即係如果我而家畀你睇呢啲一條條銀色嘅答 : 係, 係, 條裝問 : 呢個就係 -- 如果我哋講緊錫條就係講呢啲問 : 係咪? 如果我哋講緊錫條嘅, 就會講緊係有鉛嘅你知道? 答 : 係條狀問 : 係嘞問 : 唔, 即係錫條, 條裝嘅, 就通常你哋個認知呢, 就有鉛嘅? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

65 問 : 線呢就係無鉛嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 唔, 好咁如果你作為供應商呢, 如果人哋同你講, 籠統啲稱錫條嘅, 即係條狀嘅, 咁你都會係去供應 50 力嗰隻, 係咪? 問 : 嗄, 如果講到明係錫線嘅, 嗄, 講到錫線嘅問 : 咁你就會畀呢隻綠色一卷卷... 答 : 係, 正 -- 係問 :... 無鉛嘅錫線畀佢嘞, 係咪? 問 : 唔, 好我想你睇一睇呢啲單呢你可以睇下 98,1 答 :98 呀?98, 得, 唔該問 : 係嘞答 : 唔好意思問 : 唔答 :97,98, 冇咗 98 嘅請問?97, 哦,sorry, 呢度 98, 係, 見到問 : 唔, 好嘞, 你如果睇下 98 呢, 呢一張就係金日工程喇, 咁同你哋即係落嘅嗰啲訂貨單嚟嘅答 : 唔問 : 嗄答 : 唔問 : 咁佢呢度都有寫住第一就係啲膠片喇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

66 答 : 係吖, 冇錯問 : 係咪呀? 咁呀 200 件咁樣答 : 唔, 唔問 : 咁呢啲都係即係你哋公司供應喇? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 第二就係寫住高溫錫條嘅, 係咪? 答 : 首先你講 -- 我亦都 -- 係, 你講晒先問 : 我未問完, 所以你慢慢... 答 : 唔好意思, 唔好意思問 :... 聽完個問題先答 : 心急咗呀問 : 唔緊要, 因為我剛才問你喇, 係咪呀? 就係如果講緊錫條嘅話呢, 一般嚟講, 你就知道係講緊 50 力, 一條條銀色嗰啲嚟嘅,... 答 : 係, 係, 冇錯問 :... 係咪? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 係嘞, 咁呢度呢, 就就咁寫高溫錫條問 : 首先搞清楚先, 呢度就唔係講緊錫線嘅答 : 明白問 : 係咪呀? 咁但係你嘅認知, 呢個高溫錫條又係點解呢? 答 : 我亦都講番之前, 有啲行家, 即係地盤工人, 高溫係卷裝, 已經講咗, 亦都我哋覺得, 或者我哋甚至乎可能打個電話問番對方採購, 係咪用 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

67 番呢個卷裝, 我先去落番呢張 order, 你亦都睇番之前, 佢都冇寫高溫㗎嘛, 係惟獨呢張單寫高溫吖嘛問 : 唔答 : 所以我哋會問番對方, 係唔係用呢隻呀, 咁囉, 通常地盤工人有時叫高溫係卷裝, 照我所知就問 : 好, 即係你嘅意思就係話, 如果每一次有人寫高溫錫條, 你就會產生個疑問, 就係唔係好肯定係用邊隻嘅答 : 會 -- 我哋會覺得係正常係用卷裝問 : 搞清楚先, 你話你覺得如果寫高溫錫條, 就係應該係講緊卷... 答 : 我亦都會問番對方採購問 : 係, 一步一步嚟答 : 哦, 慢慢, 係問 : 未問對方採購部澄清之前,... 答 : 唔問 :... 你就咁睇到高溫錫條嘅答 : 唔, 唔問 : 剛才我問你喇,... 答 : 唔, 係吖問 :... 錫條同埋錫線有個好大分別吖嘛? 答 : 係, 啱吖, 係, 係, 啱問 : 我哋就咁睇如果錫條嘅, 呢度寫住高溫錫條嘅問 : 你唔會第一時間係認為係講緊 50 力咩? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

68 答 : 我唔會, 我亦都會首先問番對方, 究竟你要乜嘢, 之前佢冇寫高溫呢兩個字問 : 好答 : 咁我亦都要問番對方究竟你要乜嘢囉問 : 唔, 所以我剛才問你嘅問題呢, 就係話如果你見到高溫錫條呀答 : 唔問 : 即係每一次如果你見到高溫錫條嘅話呢, 你都會有個疑問嘅問 : 究竟你係想訂邊一隻? 問 : 係咪呀? 問 : 唔然後先至會確實咗係邊隻, 先至畀人嘅? 問 : 係咪呀? 問 : 即係唔會話, 睇到高溫錫條呢, 我就畀你 Y 呢隻嘞咁樣? 答 : 唔會問 : 你係唔會咁嘅? 答 : 唔會, 問清楚佢問 : 好, 問清楚嘅答 : 會問囉 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

69 問 : 好好嘞, 如果我哋睇番 97 頁嗰個送貨單呢,... 答 : 唔問 :... 送貨單呢, 呢度呢就送咗英國 Y 無鉛錫線嘅答 : 係吖, 係吖, 唔問 : 咁即係以你嘅講法呢, 就係話, 你都係問咗之後... 答 : 唔問 :... 先至確認咗, 先至送呢啲物料嘅? 問 : 係咪呀? 問 : 唔, 邊個去問呀? 你問定係你公司同事去問呀? 答 : 公司同事問 : 唔咁你畀你嘅公司同事嘅指示, 就係話每次如果你見到高溫錫條呢, 你都要問下, 究竟佢哋要咩嘢貨, 係咪咁呀? 答 : 我諗唔需要, 因為之前張單冇寫, 佢哋都會自覺, 自發性去問佢事關佢之前都寫嗰啲錫線咋嘛, 之前佢啲,olden, 金日工程嗰啲都係問 : 唔答 : 冇 -- 唔係註明高溫呀, 所以小姐會自動去問佢㗎, 呢個問 : 唔答 : 唔因為名稱已經唔同咗吖嘛比之前問 : 係我哋咁睇吖, 即係如果你講番就住金日工程嘅單喇答 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

70 問 : 如果我哋睇番之前嘅, 如果你講緊 -- 假設... 答 : 唔, 第幾頁呀? 問 :... 我哋睇下啲其他單據吖答 : 好呀, 好呀問 :94 頁吖答 : 好呀問 :94 頁呢講緊英國 50 力扁錫條嘅咁答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 咁如果你講番之前嘅訂貨單呢, 就 84 頁問 :84 頁呢就唔係寫錫線嘅, 係寫錫條嘅問 :84, 唔 86 呢, 亦都係有一張呢寫住錫條嘅答 : 唔, 係問 : 唔, 你嘅意思就係話如果唔係淨係寫錫條兩個字... 答 : 唔問 :... 一寫咗高溫錫條呢... 答 : 咪有 question 囉問 :... 你個同事就會自動波要問佢哋㗎嘞? 問 : 係咪? 答 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

71 問 : 呢個做法呢, 即係你話見到高溫錫條呢, 就要問呢, 幾時開始㗎呢樣嘢? 答 : 當一發現咪開始囉問 : 唔係, 即係我講緊呀, 你供應咗咁多年喇答 : 嗄, 嗄問 : 你幾時開始第一次見到, 有人訂高溫錫條呢樣嘢, 引致你啲同事需要問呀? 答 : 我諗都好耐㗎喇問 : 好耐? 問 : 唔咁你自己有冇考究過呢個高溫錫條呢, 其實係究竟指邊一隻物料呀? 答 : 我同你講係無鉛錫線主席 : 我睇過你哋公司交嚟畀我哋嗰啲... 答 : 唔主席 :... 資料呀, 即係嗰啲包裝呀, 同埋嗰啲技術規格嗰啲 technical data 呢答 : 唔主席 : 咁我知道無鉛錫線就係二百七十幾度就係溶點... 答 : 係, 係, 無鉛, 係主席 : 啊, 二百四十幾度... 答 : 我唔知呀, 我諗... 主席 : 咁上下喇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

72 答 : 嗄, 嗄主席 : 但是另外嗰隻英國 50 力呢, 我睇過佢嗰啲技術規格上高冇溶點寫喺度嘅答 : 基本上係低溫啲嘅主席 : 就你所知, 低幾多呀? 答 : 佢能夠 -- 我唔知, 即係大家討論傾偈咁主席 : 係呀答 : 我照我所知, 佢用嗰啲 -- 譬如用嗰啲叫做 -- 死, 唔識講, 即係嗰啲 gas 呀主席 : 係答 :as 用嗰把槍都可以溶到佢嘅主席 : 兩隻都溶到嘅? 答 : 未必得㗎有隻主席 : 吓? 答 : 佢個高溫嗰隻可能溶得辛苦啲, 會溶到, 可能時間耐咗主席 : 時間耐咗喇, 係喇答 : 耐咗, 但係如果你 -- 佢嗰隻應該我諗 -- 我諗百零度喥就可以主席 : 百零度就得嘞? 答 : 嗄, 我 -- 我估計喇, 即係我 -- 即係你話要認真睇, 我就冇認真睇, 百零度喥主席 : 琴日我認真睇過, 不過冇寫嗄即係冇 -- 即係你唔知, 唔答 : 唔許偉強先生 : 好 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

73 答 : 係, 佢哋 -- 佢啲行 -- 即係佢哋嘅術語就叫做低溫錫或者叫水錫囉佢哋主席 : 就係因為佢太容易溶嘞,... 答 : 係嘞主席 :... 所以叫水錫, 係咪咁嘅意思呀? 答 : 係嘞, 係嘞, 你 -- 你真係好清楚唔好意思問 : 好, 我哋睇一睇, 你剛才... 主席 : 我都想問埋你主席 : 邊隻好賺啲呀? 答 : 你覺得呢? 主席 : 我覺得 50 力好賺啲答 : 哦, 唔係主席 : 吓? 答 : 絕對唔係主席 : 絕對唔係呀? 答 : 即係睇番嗰個銀碼, 我亦都 -- 我喺呢段時間亦都睇番啲資料主席 : 係答 : 啱啱我睇番 -- 畀同事畀番啲資料我睇, 我 11 年去到 14 年個比例上, 係無鉛錫線係多過有鉛嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

74 主席 : 唔係, 得, 呢個係 -- 即係你講賣出嘅數量, 就係無鉛錫線就遠超過 50 力? 答 : 同埋個 -- 如果格 -- 好蝕 -- 賺, 正常係無鉛主席 : 唔係, 我講個 profit margin 答 :rofit margin 差 -- 我諗係有鉛係好 -- 總之我唔識英文, 總之... 主席 : 係呀答 :... 我覺得係有鉛係利潤好啲主席 : 有鉛好... 答 : 唔係, 無鉛, 噏錯主席 : 無鉛? 答 : 無鉛主席 : 無鉛嘅利潤好啲? 答 : 係, 事關佢銀碼 190, 一個就我記憶中應該係 95 鈫喥主席 : 係咁上下喇, 係喇答 : 係呀, 斷磅計佢就主席 : 唔係, 我想問就係, 你呢隻無鉛錫線就我哋所知, 其實我睇過你英國嗰個單張, 都有無鉛錫線買㗎答 : 係, 係主席 : 係咪呀? 主席 : 都有 99 買㗎主席 : 係囉 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

75 主席 : 但係你就冇入? 答 : 點解冇入, 事關市場係, Y 係好易接受主席 : 係答 : 即係唔需要... 主席 : 唔需要... 答 :... 多講, 喺呢個市場係已經用咗好多年主席 : 係答 : 亦都水喉師傅亦都識晒主席 : 係答 : 點樣去運作, 點樣做法主席 : 係答 : 我唔可以引隻新嘅牌子去做主席 : 係答 : 嗄主席 : 咁我又想問下嘞, 你就話無鉛錫線賣出個數量就遠超過呢個 50 力, 大約個比例係幾多比幾多喥呀? 答 : 我啱啱睇到大概如果無鉛可能係 -- 其實喺呢個項目嚟講, 公司業績嚟講, 即係個生意額嚟講, 係一個好細嘅... 主席 : 啱吖答 :...per cent 嚟嘅主席 : 啱吖答 : 好少嘅啫, 喺項目嚟講 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

76 主席 : 係答 : 我記得 -- 而家我唔知, 靠記得吓, 事關我閂咗係 11 年 12 年 13 年喥喇, 估計每年大概係 8000 卷喥, 嗰隻, 平均主席 : 係答 : 如果嗰隻有鉛嗰隻, 平均係四千零磅喥主席 : 唔答 :1 年喇主席 : 即係二比一咁上下喇? 答 : 係嘞主席 : 唔問 : 我想問一問你呢... 答 : 同埋五 -- 冇 --sorry, 你講問 : 係, 想問一問你呢, 就係就住嗰啲物料個樣辦呀, 即係要呈交畀總承建商呀, 呈交畀房署呀答 : 唔問 : 咁我哋就睇到啲外判商呢, 水喉外判商呢, 都講呢, 佢哋會問你去攞個樣辦嘅咁樣答 : 唔一定問 : 唔有問你攞過樣辦喇? 答 : 絕對有, 但係唔一定問 : 係如果問你攞樣辦嘅時候, 我首先想搞清楚個程序啫就係問你攞樣辦嘅時候, 佢哋會唔會話即係畀一個清單你, 就話即係你出咗幾多種物料, 要啲乜嘢嘅材料嘅, 有冇咁樣, 一啲咁嘅清單畀你睇㗎? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

77 答 : 乜嘢清單呢, 請問? 問 : 如果例如佢要問你攞例如十種有關材料嘅樣辦, 咁佢哋會係逐樣逐樣就咁口同你講吖, 定係會畀個 list 你? 答 : 哦, 有啲公司會, 有啲公司係唔會問 : 好咁如果, 一般嚟講, 我哋講緊啱啱嗰幾間水喉分判商喇, 即係講緊和興宏利何標記金日, 等等喇, 咁佢哋如果係問你攞一啲焊料嘅樣辦嘅, 焊料嘅樣辦, 咁你一定就會畀呢一隻佢㗎嘞? 答 : 係客人要求問 : 佢要求嘅? 問 : 佢直情同你講到明 Y 無鉛錫線, 你要畀我? 答 : 佢會講問 : 係咪? 問 : 同時間, 咁你又會提供樣辦喇, 係咪, 跟番佢嘅要求? 答 : 佢有需要就會畀, 冇需要我就唔會畀問 : 係嘞即係我嘅意思係話佢哋問你要攞樣辦, 有需要嘞, 咁你就會提供呢個樣辦喇? 答 : 佢要乜嘢, 我就畀乜嘢樣辦佢問 : 好咁如果佢要啲文件嘅, 有關個材料嘅文件嘅, 咁你都會提供畀佢嘞? 答 : 可以係上網 download 我哋資料喇, 亦都經我同事 e 畀佢喇問 : 好咁我又想問下你嘞, 就住呢個樣辦個呈交喇, 我知道又唔會牽涉在內㗎, 你係提供個... 答 : 我唔係 -- 我即係 -- 係, 係, 係, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

78 問 : 你係提供個樣辦嘅啫? 答 : 係, 係, 係, 係問 : 我想問下你, 就住嗰幾間水喉分判商, 你提供樣辦嘅時候, 除咗呢隻, 會唔會畀錫條佢哋㗎? 答 : 客人要求我畀乜嘢就畀乜嘢佢冇要求畀嗰個, 我就唔會畀嗰個問 : 佢哋有冇要求你畀錫條做樣辦呀? 答 : 冇問 : 佢哋要求, 一件事喇, 但係你做咁多年, 亦都參與過咁多嘅房署嘅工程喇, 你都會應該會有知道畀綠色呢一卷卷嘅會係啱㗎? 唔好理佢嘅要求係咩嘢先, 你會知道呢一隻係掂嘅, 係咪? 問 : 不如我睇睇你嘅證人口供有一段, 第 7 段你就話客戶一般嚟講就唔會話特別去講到明買嗰啲料係攞嚟做啲咩嘢用途嘅, 係咪? 答 : 係吖問 : 好嘞咁就當佢哋要去訂貨嘅時候, 就唔會特別講到明㗎答 : 係吖問 : 咁跟住你就講嘞, 嗰啲咁嘅物料, 即係焊料, 係可以攞嚟做食水喉嘅用途嘅答 : 係吖問 : 同時間你都話佢可以做其他用途個喎, 例如清潔, 嗰啲淋... 主席 : 淋花問 :... 花, 呢個冷氣, 同埋呢一個防 -- 應該係防火嘅設備咁樣 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

79 主席 : 消防喉問 : 消防喉咁樣首先我想知道, 例如你話嗰啲焊料都可以做冷氣嘅工程嘅, 呢樣嘢吓, 邊個話畀你聽㗎? 答 : 我哋係... 問 : 你點道呢啲咁嘅焊料可以做冷氣嘅工程? 答 : 焊料, 講真, 我哋都係 -- 冷氣有機會有銅喉, 咪當係有機會囉我哋話番畀你聽啫即係我哋亦都唔知佢地盤燒喺邊度, 基本上即係我哋只係交過去地盤, 佢燒喺邊個位置, 我哋都唔會去探討佢㗎嘛問 : 唔好咁複雜喇答 : 咁咪係囉問 : 我好簡單喇, 呢度就係話你知道呢啲咁嘅焊料係可... 答 : 我係舉例之嘛問 : 你聽我問埋先, 好唔好? 答 : 係, 唔好意思吓問 : 你知道呢啲焊料係可以攞嚟做冷氣工程嘅我而家問你, 從何得知呀, 做冷氣工程? 你又唔會去問你啲客戶㗎嘛, 咁你從何得知呢, 做冷氣工程? 答 : 我係舉例返嚟有機會... 主席 : 唔係, 即係你用你嘅常識吖, 抑或人哋話你知吖? 答 : 係囉, 舉例, 常識, 係有機會, 銅喉囉主席 : 咁你答佢個問題得㗎嘞 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

80 答 : 咁我 -- 係囉, 即係你冷氣有機會銅喉㗎嘛, 咁我... 問 : 係你係講緊你話 -- 即係剛才主席都有提過嘞, 就係你係用你嘅常識嚟諗話啊, 可能會做到冷氣,... 答 : 係吖問 :... 定係有人話過畀你聽會攞嚟做冷氣呀? 答 : 常識主席 : 唔使咁勞氣,r haw 許偉強先生 : 係主席 : 係, 唔使咁勞氣許偉強先生 : 大聲咗啫, 唔會勞氣, 係問 : 咁我想問下你嘞, 就係呢個消防喉你就啊, 有機會做消防喉喇, 呢樣嘢咁呢樣嘢又係咪人哋話畀你聽吖, 定係即係你嘅常識話畀你知呀? 答 : 係常識喇主席 : 即係你嘅意思即係凡係有管裝嘅嘢要燒埋一齊... 答 : 係嘞, 即係好多類型嘅嘢, 我唔知, 我唔係做工程, 即係我係常識嘅諗法, 自己問 : 好嘞, 咁你呢度講, 嗰啲咁嘅焊料, 就你嘅常識嚟講, 可以攞嚟做唔同嘅嘢, 唔同嘅目的, 包括冷氣消防喉咁 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

81 問 : 你呢度講嘅焊料, 你係講緊呢綠色一卷卷吖, 定係講緊銀色一條條嗰啲焊料呀? 答 : 係講兩隻問 : 兩隻, 係咪? 答 : 總之係焊料喇問 : 好主席 : 我想問下你, 我哋見到嗰啲扁錫條, 上面有兩個 label 嘅, 一個係中文 label, 一個就係原本我相信係嚟嘅時候已經有嘅 label 答 : 係, 係主席 : 英文嗰個係嚟嗰陣時已經有㗎喇嘛, 係咪? 主席 : 你知我講緊咩嘢吖嘛? 答 : 我知, 紅色印嗰個吖嘛主席 : 上高紅色, 寫住有含鉛㗎嘛答 : 係, 係, 係, 知主席 : 咁嗰個中文嗰個係... 答 : 我方便佢啲 -- 你知道我文化水準同佢哋都係咁低, 方便佢哋去簽收, 對番嗰個名稱事關佢全部盒係英文嚟嘛主席 : 係, 方便地盤... 答 : 同埋方便執貨亦都我哋同事... 主席 : 方便執貨? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

82 答 : 係嘞主席 : 方便地盤嗰啲人收貨? 答 : 係嘞點解呢? 我哋啲同事亦都係 -- 你知道執貨嗰啲都係文化低, 亦都列清楚啲嘢, 係問 : 咁我問一問你, 就係如果當嗰啲咁嘅水喉分判商, 就係例如何標記金日佢哋, 即係同你去訂焊料嘅時候, 我咁樣講你同唔同意呢, 即係你作為即係供應商, 做咗咁多年, 同佢哋咁多年生意來往, 都應該都清楚就係話會諗到, 就係佢哋要啲焊料係攞嚟做水喉嘅用途嘅, 你同唔同意? 答 : 唔同意問 : 吓? 答 : 唔清楚用係真係用水嗰度問 : 唔同意, 係咪? 答 : 唔同意問 : 但係呢個係可能係起碼係即係其中一個主要嘅用途喇, 對佢哋嚟講, 你同意嘛? 答 : 可以咁講問 : 想問一問你嘞, 就係如果我哋睇番何標記有啲證人嘅口供,3,2364 呢個就係何標記採購部趙小姐嘅口供嚟嘅咁之前我有提過趙小姐喇咁佢喺答呢一個問題嗰陣時呢 -- 或者我將佢嗰個供詞譯一次畀你聽答 : 好呀, 好呀問 : 咁你聽咗先,... 答 : 唔好意思問 :... 咁然後我先會有啲問題跟進番嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

83 答 : 好呀, 好呀, 好呀問 : 首先就係佢就話嘞, 佢話當佢哋公司即係同何標記 -- 即係何標記同你哋公司接洽, 就話要去準備嗰啲有關焊料嘅樣辦嘅時候, 即係攞嚟畀房署去批核嘅時候, 有位鄺生就會話畀你哋聽, 就係嗰啲咁嘅焊料係會攞嚟做接駁食水喉, 就住嗰啲屋邨工程, 公共屋邨工程, 接駁食水喉嘅用途嘅咁, 咁所以何標記 -- 對唔住, 你哋公司就會建議何標記就用 Y 呢一隻無鉛嘅同埋一隻 Y 黃色一罌罌嘅松香膏, 同埋會畀啲資料佢哋嘅咁樣所以呢度就首先第一樣嘢佢講嘅就係話何標記會有同事同你哋講話喂, 攞樣辦嚟係做乜嘢用途嘅呢一點, 你同唔同意? 答 : 同意問 : 嗯? 答 : 同意問 : 同意第二樣嘢, 佢呢度講嘅, 係話你哋公司知道咗用咩嘢途徑, 要攞啲咩嘢用途嘅樣辦, 你哋公司係會提議, 就係話啊, 用綠色一卷卷無鉛㗎喇咁樣, 就唔係話你剛才所講話喂, 佢哋叫我攞無鉛一卷卷綠色個喎咁樣答 : 唔係, 唔係, 唔係, 唔係, 搞清楚佢會要求我哋攞乜嘢, 亦都有事關佢問番我哋公司, 我哋只係代理呢隻產品, 當然我哋會提議用呢隻喇, 好正常吖, 係咪呀? 我冇理由整嗰隻咩嘢 -- 唔識講呀吓, 嗰隻牌子㗎嘛問 : 係, 係我就想搞清楚一樣嘢嘅啫, 就係呢度趙小姐就話你哋公司係會建議, 喂, 攞去房署批樣辦 -- 你等我問埋先, 好唔好? 答 : 好, 好, 好, 好問 : 攞去房署批樣辦嘅話, 你哋公司係會建議, 喂, 何標記, 你哋用呢一隻綠色一卷卷㗎喇咁樣 ; 咁係咪咁嘅情況呢? 答 : 我都講咗, 我呢隻牌子, 佢要求呢樣嘢, 我就畀番嗰啲資料佢亦都呢隻牌子係我哋本身係其中一間代理, 當然我要 -- 責任上又好, 義務上都會去畀啲資料佢㗎喇問 : 其實我個問題好簡單嘅啫, 就係話何標記問你哋攞焊料樣辦嘅時候, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

84 你哋會唔會主動建議佢哋用呢一隻綠色一卷卷呢? 答 : 我都講咗呢隻係我哋嘅產品, 梗係會提議佢用呢隻嘢即係佢亦都可能搵到第二隻, 我唔可以一定要幫我㗎嘛主席 : 即係你會建議佢, 因為你哋有存庫? 答 : 建議, 係會建議, 事關我哋係代理嚟㗎嘛主席 : 係, 你哋係問 : 好咁我睇下另外莫海光嗰個口供我哋睇一睇莫海光,1, 第 15 頁問 : 我知道莫海光係永興間公司㗎答 : 係, 係, 係, 係, 係問 : 咁佢喺第 15 頁, 第 29 段 -- 我先同你睇一睇先, 好唔好? 答 : 好呀問 : 咁就話永興向雋景同埋和興購買焊料時, 由本人或其他工友以電話落單一般情況下, 本人或工友會聯絡和興的劉小姐, 及雋景的 en 咁阿 en 應該係你哋公司... 答 : 係, 其中一位同事問 :... 嘅其中一位同事喇特別情況下, 例如手頭上沒有和興辦公室的電話或焊料缺貨, 則會直接聯絡和興的老闆呂先生, 請他幫忙永興一般會要求購買錫條, 數量都是以百磅計, 份量可多達數百磅印象中供應商如果沒有錫條供應, 則可能會建議提供卷裝錫線作替代而永興會接受以卷裝錫線作替代品, 以防影響工程進度訂貨時只需在電話中說明要訂購錫條的份量及工地所在就可, 並不需要指明錫條的牌子型號及用 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

85 途由於落單時永興會一併購買其他水喉工程所需物料, 所以供應商一般都清楚了解錫條是用於水喉焊接, 故此永興不用說明, 供應商亦都不會特地詢問呢度就有兩個問題想同你跟進下嘅第一個問題, 就係佢呢度就話喂, 我哋落單時候, 即係落呢啲焊料嘅單嘅時候, 都係同嗰啲水喉工程其他所需要嘅物料都有時會一齊落單嘅, 咁同埋即係嗰間公司, 永興本身就係做水喉㗎喇咁, 所以佢就話你哋公司都應該係會知道如果咁樣落單買焊料, 嗰啲焊料應該係攞嚟做水喉嘅用途嘅咁咁想問下你, 就住呢一點, 你同唔同意呢? 答 : 唔同意問 : 另外一點, 就係佢呢度就話嘞, 如果冇錫條供應, 就會建議用卷裝錫線嚟到替代首先我想問下你, 有冇咁嘅情況係話, 喂, 佢哋訂錫條, 如果唔夠錫條喎, 你哋公司會建議佢哋用卷裝嘅錫線嚟替代呢? 答 : 唔會問 : 唔會嘅, 從來冇嘅, 係咪? 答 : 你講從來, 我唔夠膽講 ; 但係我哋唔會, 事關你涉及呢個又係兩間公司嘅嘢主席 : 點樣樣兩間公司嘅嘢? 答 : 佢而家和興同埋雋景吖嘛, 呢度主席 : 哦, 哦唔係, 唔係, 即係就住你雋景嚟講, 譬如如果佢訂錫條, 你就話啊, 我哋冇錫條呀, 唔夠貨喎, 會唔會話誒, 畀一半錫條你喇, 畀一半錫線你喇, 咁樣樣啫? 答 : 呢個情形應該唔會有, 好少呀黎先生 : 你有冇試過話冇錫線, 係要畀錫條㗎? 答 : 吓? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

86 黎先生 : 即係話調番轉, 如果唔夠錫線, 係供應錫條嘅, 有冇㗎? 都冇? 答 : 冇主席 : 擰頭即係唔會? 黎先生 : 係你通常係... 答 : 唔會, 唔會唔好意思吓黎先生 : 譬如話你嗰個 Y 無鉛錫線, 有冇試過話係缺貨嘅? 主席 : 係嘞答 : 會有咁嘅情形黎先生 : 有咁嘅情形嘅? 答 : 但係我哋都唔會建議個客人轉囉黎先生 : 但係普唔普遍㗎, 缺貨嘅情況? 答 : 唔會普遍黎先生 : 唔普遍? 答 : 唔會普遍主席 : 唔普遍咁如果錫條呢, 調番轉頭, 有冇試 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

87 答 : 我哋都有存貨喺度嘅主席 : 即係冇缺... 答 : 即係有缺貨嘅情形, 但係唔係好嚴重事關呢隻產品唔係我哋... 主席 : 獨家答 :... 獨家嘅, 出面市面上可以搵到貨源嘅主席 : 不過未必係, 未必係...( 聽不清 ) 答 : 亦有主席 : 都有嘅? 答 : 有, 絕對有主席 : 即係你哋又係其中一個分銷商嚟嘅啫? 答 : 我哋其實嗰隻有鉛錫 -- 有鉛嗰隻呢, 唔係代理嘅, 係一個 -- 你落張 order 去英國, 可以畀到貨你嘅 ; 而家就唔知得唔得, 之前就可以事關已經有人代理咗喇嘛, 而家主席 : 有人代理緊嘅? 答 : 嗄, 嗄之前係冇嘅你可以 send 張可以落 order 過嚟嘅主席 : 得答 : 但係 Y 就有代理, 即係叫做代理, 有幾個代理嘅主席 : 有幾個代理添呀? 答 : 係, 係主席 : 即係你哋唔係其中... 答 : 我哋其中一個, 其中一個, Y 就黎先生 : 唔係 sole agent ranscript by orporation sia, imited

88 主席 : 唔係 exclusive? 答 : 唔問 : 你剛才提到喇, 就係有試過缺貨㗎嘛, 都 ; 如果係即係嗰隻錫條, 有試過缺貨, 係咪? 問 : 係咪? 咁如果你錫條缺貨嘅時候, 咁你哋點辦呢? 咁點樣去... 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 你講晒先, 唔好意思吓我衰呀, 呢啲性格, 唔好意思問 : 唔緊要, 你講吖答 : 其實講真, 喺呢個市場, 我都講咗, 不是我哋獨家代理喇, 第一第二, 我哋冇貨, 話畀客人聽我哋幾時到喇, 佢自己去選擇佢等唔等喇, 或者去出面搵喇, 係咁簡單問 : 即係一係就等, 一係就... 答 : 係, 即係話番個期畀佢聽, 係嘞問 :... 喺出面搵, 係咪? 問 : 如果你話去出面搵嘅, 咁你嘅意思就係話叫佢要同第二個供應商接洽個囉喎? 答 : 係問 : 係咪? 即係你哋就做唔到嘞, 係咪, 如果係咁嘅情況? 答 : 係, 係問 : 係咪? 所以你就話唔會有啲情況, 係如果缺貨嘅話, 你去提供另外一隻做替代嘅? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

89 答 : 唔會問 : 好主席 : 即係你嘅意思其實佢要去出面搵第二啲 agent 去買都... 主席 :... 搵到? 答 : 吓? 主席 : 因為唔係你獨家吖嘛? 答 : 係, 冇錯個客人攞, 我要畀番佢嘅, 我冇理建議佢用㗎嘛事關喺市場已經係好多存在喺度, 呢隻產品主席 : 因為我今朝早睇報紙就話呢隻英國 Y 無鉛錫線, 如果個個都要呢隻 Y 無鉛錫線嘅話呢, 就一定會冇貨答 : 咁係錯嘅主席 : 錯嘅答 : 而家 Y 已經有個英國代表喺香港嘞, 已經問 : 咁我想問下你, 就係你剛才話如果係缺貨嘅時候, 咁你會同個客人講, 嗱, 你等唔等吖? 答 : 絕對對係喇問 :... 一係你就搵第二間嘞咁答 : 呢個我會話畀佢聽幾時, 搵第二間係佢決定問 : 第二間由佢決定嘅, 好答 : 係, 唔係我決定 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

90 問 : 咁我想問下你, 就係話如果有缺貨嘅情況喇, 有冇試過啲客戶會問下你, 或者叫你建議下, 或者佢哋自己建議下, 喂, 第二隻吖, 睇下得唔得吖咁? 答 : 我冇問 : 都冇嘅? 答 : 我係冇囉主席 : 我見你哋個價目單冇第二隻個囉喎答 : 冇乜嘢? 主席 : 我睇緊你 3,2354 答 : 係, 第幾頁? 主席 :3,2354 答 : 係, 點呀? 主席 : 呢個就係你哋公司賣畀啲水喉分判商嘅有關燒焊用品,... 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 主席 :... 你哋就係得咁多隻㗎咋嘛, 係咪? 答 : 係, 你講邊度, 你講? 係, 我見到主席 : 頭嗰三個, 我哋大家都好清楚喇, 係咪? 答 : 係, 係, 係主席 : 跟住嗰四個就係銀焊枝... 主席 :... 或者銅焊枝, 咁我哋... 答 : 係, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

91 主席 :... 都唔使理喇不鏽鋼焊枝, 我哋都唔使理喇, 係咪? 主席 : 嗰啲你諗係駁不鏽鋼嘅啫主席 : 跟住呢個電焊枝係乜嘢嚟㗎? 答 : 呢個, 第幾頁呀, 請問? 問 :2354 答 : 五四, 哦,sorry 吓, 五四主席 : 係呀, 之久牌 10 號電焊枝答 : 哦, 五四呀? 主席 :2354 答 : 哦, 五四嗰個焊枝係燒鐵焊燒鐵嗰啲, 譬如你見到地盤, 笛笛聲, 發啲火花,... 主席 : 哦, 我明白答 :...( 聽不清 ) 嗰啲燒鐵嘅, 愛嚟燒鐵嘅主席 : 得即係換句話嚟講, 如果你冇 50 力扁錫條, 就一係就係無鉛錫線, 如果唔係就冇㗎嘞? 主席 : 得問 : 我想你睇一睇就係文件夾 1 問 :1 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

92 答 :1 呀問 :57 頁答 : 係, 請講問 :57 頁, 你見到都有張你哋公司嘅發票畀明合嘅問 : 係咪? 呢度喺嗰啲供應嗰啲貨物入面, 嗰啲材料, 第二項有個寫住英國 Y 50 力扁錫條喎, 呢度問 : 同樣地, 如果我哋睇番 75 頁答 : 係,75 頁, 係, 點樣? 問 : 係嘞,75 頁, 又係一張發票畀明合嘅, 係就住彩福邨嘅, 第二項吓, 又係寫住英國 Y 50 力扁錫條咁答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 咁我想問一問你, 呢度嗰個英國 Y 50 力扁錫條又係何意義呢? 因為我哋啱啱討論過... 答 : 首先我講番嗰個歷程先喇第一, 點解我要寫番 Y 50 力呢? 首先我哋開始, 盤古初開, 我自己創業, 就喺香港訂購跟住之後我哋接觸到 Y, 跟住問佢, 佢有生產呢隻咁我哋之後有同佢訂呢個 50 力扁錫主席 : 即係同 Y 訂 50 力? 答 : 係嘞之後 Y 唔做, 同我哋講話唔做, 唔好意思吓, 就轉咗呢間主席 : 就嘞? 答 : 係嘞, 係咁簡單如果你需要搵到啲 -- 我唔知搵唔搵到啲購貨表畀你, 可以 ; 我唔知畀唔畀到你, 就未必得嘞 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

93 主席 : 所以你嗰個 -- 譬如我而家睇番, 即係你哋個編號都係用 Y-W50 答 : 點解呢? 我哋唔想再 -- 我哋一 -- 我唔怕同你講, 我哋公司到而家成立咗咁多年, 超過一萬種產品, 我唔想再... 主席 : 整過個 code 答 : 已經唔夠容量呀, 變咗用, 好慢嘞, 已經, 所以我哋唔想 -- 盡量唔好改嗰個 code 囉係, 係咁簡單問 : 唔好意思, 可能我未理解清楚你剛才嗰一點喇, 就係話你就話因為盤古初開嘅時候, 咁你又知道 Y 係有供應 50 力... 答 : 唔係, 我話咗我當時同 Y 攞係無鉛錫線跟住我再問佢話有做呢隻產品,50 力扁錫, 我哋就同佢攞 50 力扁錫之後佢就唔做嘞, 就跟住轉咗呢個唔知乜嘢喇, 唔記得咗嘞, 就係呢間公司問 : 明白咁所以你呢度講嗰個英國 Y 50 力扁錫條就唔係寫錯嘅,... 答 : 冇寫錯問 :... 就係真係有呢隻英國 Y 50 力, 你係訂呢隻嘅? 答 : 係, 即係同呢間廠訂嘅問 : 好講番啱啱嗰個問題喇, 就係話如果你錫條係冇貨嘅, 咁你就話你哋唔會去... 答 : 係吖問 :...-- 即係你自己亦都唔會去話提議個客人用第二隻喇咁答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 咁你知唔知道你哋啲員工, 即係你哋啲職員伙記, 會唔會提議畀客戶用第二隻㗎? 答 : 你話冇錫條? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

94 問 : 冇錫條, 咁又會唔會提議佢哋用第 -- 即係你自己唔會喇但係你知唔知道例如你啲伙記會唔會去提議呢樣嘢呀? 答 : 呢樣嘢應該機會唔係好大囉, 事關我哋知道市場係有呢隻產品存在我哋都唔想令到客人 -- 畀唔到客人嘅嘢喇, 轉 -- 冇意思, 亦都貴咗, 啲嘢你叫佢轉無鉛錫線, 已經貴咗喇問 : 你就呢樣嘢, 你有冇同你同事了解過個情況呀? 答 : 佢應該會知嘅, 我啲同事應該都會主席 : 你嘅意思如果... 答 : 佢 -- 啊, 係, 你講唔好意思主席 : 你嘅意思即係如果佢話要錫條,... 答 : 條, 係主席 :... 你就唔會主動... 答 : 唔會主席 : 因為貴咗? 答 : 係呀, 即係令佢要負擔咗, 多咗主席 : 咁如果佢要錫線, 你又唔會畀啲平嘅嘢佢喇, 係咪? 答 : 係呀, 係喇, 我哋冇可能再 -- 我冇理由再同佢搵貨返嚟嘅主席 : 我明問 : 好咁我初頭嗰陣時問你, 就係話你認識呢一隻綠色一卷卷無鉛錫線喇, 就同時間都會認識呢隻 Y 黃色一罌罌嘅松香膏嘅, 係咪? 答 : 嗄, 嗄問 : 咁你都知道係一齊用㗎喇, 係咪? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

95 答 : 係, 係問 : 係咪? 答 : 係, 係, 啲水喉師傅同我講, 係, 係問 : 係嘞我問一問你喇, 就係你亦都知道就係呢一隻黃色呢隻 Y 嘅松香膏, 咁都係可以攞嚟做即係食水喉接駁嘅用途喇, 係咪? 答 : 一齊配套用囉問 : 一齊配套用喇, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 好嘞, 咁我問一問你喇, 就係如果你睇番啲單嚟講, 如果我哋睇一睇 1,1,135 頁答 : 一百幾多話? 問 :135 答 : 係,135 問 : 係呢個我哋睇到你畀何標記嘅發票, 就係即係同時間供應咗 Y 大黃罐松香膏同埋英國 50 力扁錫條嘅咁答 : 唔問 : 咁如果我哋睇下 139 喇 139, 又係 Y 大黃罐松香膏英國 50 力扁錫條, 睇到嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 睇到呵? 答 : 唔問 : 咁跟住 140, 又係 Y, 又係大黃罐松香膏英國 50 力扁錫條咁答 : 唔, 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

96 問 : 同樣, 你如果再睇多一張,113 喇答 : 唔問 : 又係咁嘅情況喇, 都係呢兩隻, 英國 50 力扁錫條, 又有大黃罐松香膏嘅答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 :144 喇 145 喇, 都係咁樣訂嘅, 即係兩隻一齊訂答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 即係我想問一問你, 就係話即係你都知道呢兩隻係一齊訂㗎? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 即係當啲客戶去訂松香膏嘅時候, 但係同時間又唔係訂呢一隻綠色一卷卷喎, 又... 答 : 唔會質疑佢... 問 : 你聽我問埋先吓答 : 好, 你講先, 你講問 : 又係訂緊另外一隻錫條喎你知道呢兩隻... 主席 : 松香膏, 其實我嘅理解,r haw, 你 lead 同埋 non-lead 都要用嘅問 : 係或者我咁問一問你喇, 就係如果兩隻咁樣一齊訂嘅時候, 即係你會唔會問下, 喂, 點解唔係用嗰隻嚟到用松香膏呢咁呀? 答 : 唔會問 : 唔會, 好另外就住另外一個問題想問一問你嘅, 就係呢一個 -- 睇一睇何標記嘅口供, 喺呢個 -- 都係睇番趙小姐嘅口供, 喺呢一個 3, 2373 頁 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

97 答 : 唔該問 : 呢個都係趙小姐嘅口供如果我哋睇下最頂嗰部分, 我解畀你聽喇, 咁佢就話呢個英國 50 力扁錫條, 即係點解會用咗呢隻物料呢, 佢就話因為係雋景, 即係佢哋有介紹, 即係推薦呢一隻錫條嘅咁因為佢哋個 -- 你聽問埋先吓佢哋嘅購貨單, 即係你都清楚喇, 就冇特別講牌子嘅, 亦都冇講型號嘅咁咁呢度就係趙小姐就話點解會用咗呢一隻, 特別係呢一隻牌子嘅呢, 就係你哋公司推薦嘅咁咁我想問下, 即係你同唔同意呢個講法啫? 答 : 我同意佢嘅講法, 但係我係佢寫錫條, 我就畀錫條 ; 錫線, 畀錫線事關我公司淨係呢兩種產品問 : 係即係如果你到錫條嗰兩個字嘅, 咁你就毫不猶豫地就會畀咗英國 50 力嗰隻嘞, 係咪? 答 : 唔係, 總之條係條喇, 如果錫係錫喇, 係問 : 例如你會唔會同你哋啲客戶去介紹下, 喂, 呢個英國 50 力呀, 呢隻有啲咩嘢好處呀? 答 : 係唔會問 : 唔會嘅好另外我哋睇一睇有兩條邨啊, 問番你剛才嗰個問題喇, 就係當啲客戶同你訂錫條嘅時候, 即係在你公司嚟講, 就會係即係畀 50 力佢喇, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 你自己本人呀, 我而家問你, 就係會唔會如果見到錫條嘅, 會去諗嗰啲錫條攞嚟做咩嘢用途㗎? 答 : 係唔會問 : 唔會嘅, 好我哋睇一睇有幾條邨嗰個情況, 跟住同你睇一睇啲單喇首先我哋睇一睇呢一個榮昌邨喇榮昌邨嘅單就喺呢個 1 嘅 218 頁開始嘅答 : 幾多話?118? 問 :217 開始 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

98 答 :217,217 係係問 : 係嘞我哋見到例如榮昌邨, 你搵到嗰啲單據, 就係全部都係講緊供應 50 力扁錫條嘅答 : 係, 係問 : 係咪? 咁如果我哋而家睇下呢一個東匯邨喇, 喺呢個 205 頁問 :205 頁問 : 咁就全部都係訂晒 50 力扁錫條嘅咁答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 咁就我哋睇多一個例子, 呢個就係彩福邨彩福邨, 喺 74 頁睇到嘛? 答 :74 頁, 係問 :74, 係嘞係, 睇到問 : 就住嗰幾條邨, 咁你都知道當時攞去畀房署即係做呢一個樣辦遞交同埋即係批核嘅, 就係攞咗呢一個 Y 無鉛錫線㗎 ; 呢樣嘢你清楚㗎? 答 : 唔清楚問 : 唔知嘅? 答 : 唔知問 : 即係如果我而家問番你, 東匯邨嗰陣時, 東匯邨, 即係金日工程, 佢哋當時上辦呀, 即係攞啲樣辦上去, 畀批核嘅時候, 你而家係話完全唔知道當時攞咗邊隻料去做批核? 答 : 事關我哋公司都講咗, 佢可以上網 download 我哋啲資料佢攞完之後可能會話番畀我哋聽, 亦都可能佢亦都冇話番畀我哋聽 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

99 問 : 有冇提供樣辦畀佢哋, 你而家係記得吖, 定係話唔知道? 答 : 有可能冇可能佢喺地盤自己攞一卷去做 submission 問 : 好榮昌邨呢? 答 : 我都唔知問 : 唔知? 主席 : 唔知定唔記得呀? 唔記得? 答 : 好多時佢哋上網 download 咗之後先同我哋講㗎主席 : 上網 download 乜嘢呀? 答 : 係啲資料主席 : 上網 download 資料你擺... 答 : 我哋本身公司有個網址嘅, 而家就停咗佢點解呢? 之前我哋好多譬如啲證書, 其他嘢, 都喺上網可以 download 到嘅主席 : 係呀主席 : 你要會員 number 先至入到去, 可以? 答 : 冇喎, 我哋冇我即係覺得冇所 -- 即係方便人之嘛, 個心態主席 : 即係以前就個個都入到嘅? 答 : 係, 入到嘅即係你 download, 就可以攞到啲資料㗎嘞問 :ownload 嗰啲資料, 係講話 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

100 答 : 即係證書同埋嗰啲資料, 係問 :kay 證書嗰啲可以 download 喇答 : 係, 絕對可以問 : 但係我之前都問過你, 就係話如果嗰啲水喉分判商, 咁佢哋係需要交嗰啲樣辦, 即係焊料嘅樣辦, 畀總承建商, 等房署去批嘅呢個過程你知道喇咁我就想問下你, 而家就住例如東匯邨咁講喇, 當時你有冇向佢哋提供過焊料嘅樣辦呀? 答 : 我唔記得咗嘞問 : 唔記得咗? 答 : 唔問 : 但係就住房署嘅工程, 你都今日較早時候都講得好清楚喇, 而你哋公司嗰啲章程亦都寫得好清楚, 就住房署嘅工程, 你都會知道要用焊料個話, 批嘅就係 Y 無鉛錫線呢隻嘞, 同意嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 同意嘛? 答 : 唔, 同意問 : 係嘞好嘞, 咁你如果東匯邨咁講呢, 全部佢哋落嘅 order, 即係而家講緊係水喉分判商, 同你哋公司落嘅 order, 全部都係講緊 50 力扁錫條, 完全冇一個 order 係講緊你認識係符合房署批准嘅綠色一卷卷 Y 喎咁, 咁你唔覺得好奇怪咩? 答 : 唔覺得主席 : 應該咁講, 應該咁講, 因為我哋而家就事後睇番轉頭, 就有晒所有嘅資料嘞, 咁所以個 perception 就可以會唔同, 即係個印象可能會唔同即係應該問就係當時人哋咁樣樣落單 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

101 問 : 係嘞, 當時佢落單, 即係每一次都係講緊錫條嘅咁咁你會唔會覺得, 咦, 喂, 全部落嘅單都唔係講緊符合房署即係批核嘅呢一隻材料呢? 答 : 我都講咗呢啲 order 亦都唔係經我, 亦都經我啲小姐去出單, 第一第二, 呢隻產品不是我哋獨家代理, 佢有權喺出面買啲無鉛錫線主席 : 即係你嘅意思佢同第二間買無鉛錫線, 就同... 答 : 係呀, 呢個自由社會嚟嘅, 我唔可以去質疑佢點解唔同我攞問 : 有冇邊個水喉分判商嘅人士, 即係我哋講緊呢幾間喇, 曾經同你講過, 佢哋喺第二間公司買呢個無鉛嘅錫線呀? 答 : 有嘅問 : 吓? 答 : 有問 : 邊個呀? 答 : 唔記得咗問 : 邊一間都唔記得嘞? 答 : 印象唔記得咗嘞主席 : 但係譬如好似榮昌邨咁樣樣, 即係佢一落就落 -- 金日咁樣樣, 佢一落, 落 275 磅主席 :275 磅其實都好多㗎嘛, 係咪? 答 : 唔但係我哋即係唔會理解佢用幾多嘢我哋唔識去計呢啲數即係佢唔知點燒, 我哋唔清楚㗎嘛我唔理解 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

102 黎先生 : 我見有啲情況, 就係咩嘢呢? 個樣辦提供嗰陣時係你哋提供畀嗰個... 答 : 係呀, 唔一定佢有時喺地盤抽去嘅黎先生 : 因為我見到有啲係直情係你哋係免費嘅, 冇收錢嘅主席 : 係, 有啲你哋免費, 唔使收錢嘅黎先生 : 你哋免費嘅答 : 我冇嘅, 我哋主席 : 有黎先生 : 有答 : 唔係, 免費, 冇收錢㗎嘛? 主席 : 係呀答 : 有㗎, 有㗎黎先生 : 係囉主席 : 係吖答 : 係吖, 係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

103 黎先生 : 你免費提供個樣辦畀佢交上去畀係房屋署,... 答 : 係, 係, 係, 係, 係黎先生 :... 但係之後幫襯你買嗰陣時就買啲錫條個喎答 : 係, 係黎先生 : 交個辦嗰陣時係你免費供應埋嗰個錫線喎, 但係以後幫襯你買嗰陣時係買錫條喎答 : 我唔理解佢燒喺邊個位置㗎嘛佢... 黎先生 : 咁但係你供應嗰陣時, 個辦畀人哋係交上去畀房署嗰陣時係你交畀佢個喎答 : 但係佢有權去第二間攞貨㗎嘛我嘅理解呀, 自己 ; 佢有權去第二度攞... 黎先生 : 咁佢幫襯你嗰陣時唔係已經有少少有啲嘅大家係 -- 我又 -- 你又提供嗰個 -- 免費供應咗個錫線畀你交上去就攞個批文,... 答 : 我 -- 唔, 你講晒先黎先生 :... 批准咗之後就唔幫襯你呢? 答 : 我完全冇諗呢個心態我只係覺得你要幫我就幫我, 唔幫我, 亦都冇所謂事關我都講咗, 呢隻產品喺我公司係好細個項目嚟嘅啫即係佢客人覺得我嚟講可能價錢貴喇, 我心態係咁諗法吓我貴咗喇, 佢唔幫我, 我亦都唔去強迫佢, 事關我同佢識 -- 我哋知道, 我哋識咗咁多年大家公司都合作咗咁多年, 我都唔會去諗呢樣嘢囉黎先生 :kay 問 : 你剛才提番你話有水喉分判商同你講話, 喂, 佢哋去第二間嗰度買呢啲咁樣嘅無鉛錫線喇即係你嘅意思係咪即係話喺嗰啲情況, 雖然同你攞咗辦, 但係佢哋都係同第二間供應商大批咁樣購入呀? 答 : 我自己嘅諗法佢覺得 -- 呢個係自由社會嚟㗎嘛, 佢覺得我哋價錢貴, 佢唔幫我都好 -- 我理解到㗎嘛 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

104 問 : 我想問清楚你, 你呢一個講法話同你攞咗辦之後, 有水喉分判商會大批咁樣從其他嘅供應商 -- 即係水喉分判商會從其他供應商, 即係唔你呀, 去大批購入呢樣嘢呀, 係你嘅假設吖, 定係真係你有聽過人哋咁同你講呀? 答 : 你當我假設喇, 亦都有事實係, 事實係, 咁有啲, 事實嚟㗎嘛, 有啲係問 : 唔好意思吓, 我真係唔... 答 : 即係會覺得我哋價錢會貴, 佢唔會幫我哋攞, 係事實, 有啲嘢係問 : 唔好意思呀, 我想問清楚, 你話係假設, 但係又係事實, 可唔可以講清楚... 主席 : 可以係假設, 又可以係事實答 : 係, 係吖主席 : 唔係, 我而家有興趣嘅 -- 假設嘅我哋唔好講嘞主席 : 事實嘅, 你有冇... 答 : 事實係有㗎嘛問 : 有, 係咪? 答 : 咁你好似明合咁囉, 都唔係我哋交去多, 佢攞我哋啲資料做 submission 都唔定, 因為 ; 有啲有會機我而家舉例, 係咪先? 主席 : 我明, 我明問 : 你第一次聽到話, 喂, 有啲水喉分判商雖然同你哋攞咗樣辦, 焊料樣 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

105 辦, 不過係訂嗰陣時, 喂, 唔同你哋做喎,... 答 : 冇問題問 :... 同第二間做喎咁問 : 係咪? 答 : 係, 冇問題問 : 我唔係講有冇問題我係講緊話大概幾時第一次聽到呢個情況呀? 答 : 我不嬲做生意都係咁諗法問 : 咩嘢話? 答 : 我不嬲都係咁諗法主席 : 唔係, 佢 -- 即係你不嬲就唔係好緊張, 係咪? 答 : 係呀, 係主席 : 即係你就去... 答 : 方便別人做, 係主席 : 即係你嘅意思就唔係次次都一定回頭嘅, 不過你都要做, 係咪? 答 : 係, 係嘞, 盡咗自己所能主席 : 不過佢個問題就係幾時你第一次有聽到咁樣樣情況? 答 : 嘩, 咁呀真係 -- 真係, 你叫我咁樣答你, 我真係答你喇, 即係我諗都好多年都係應該存在嘅問題, 喺呢行都存在有一個咁嘅問題喺度㗎嘞, 已經問 : 喺呢行都存在一個咁嘅問題? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

106 答 : 即係你生意嗰度係會有呢個問題存在㗎嘛問 : 對你嚟講, 呢個唔係一個問題嚟㗎? 答 : 唔係問 : 係咪? 問 : 人哋去最後問邊個採購嘅... 主席 : 呢個... 許偉強先生 : 好主席 : 呢個唔好問嘞, 係喇, 係問 : 我想問一問你, 就係你公司嗰個文件, 即係嗰啲檔案嗰啲紀錄, 我想問一問你你喺個證人口供就係咁講嘅, 喺 1 嘅第 19 頁, 第 20 段, 你哋就話即係雖然你哋盡咗最大努力嘞, 你啲同事, 去想搵番嗰啲有關嘅文件出嚟, 咁奈何就因為隔咗時間都幾長下嘞咁, 咁同埋即係你嗰個存放嗰啲地方亦都係即係冇咗, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 咁所以就搵唔番嗰個有關嘅紀錄喇咁我想問一問就係你哋公司嗰個做法, 一般嚟講, 文件紀錄, 我哋講緊即係唔係所有文件喇, 我哋如果講緊係發票送貨單嗰啲, 一般嚟講你哋會保存幾耐㗎? 答 : 老實講, 我哋公司一日開單都好多, 亦都好 -- 真係都幾多客, 我哋只係 keep -- 即係如果講會計做法, 我哋通常就 keep 七年嘅發票喇譬如送貨單, 譬如過咗幾年, 兩至三年或者, 會可能會抌咗佢喇 ; 同埋嗰啲客人嘅亦都抌 ; 佢已經係找咗數, 係完咗一件事喇嘛, 我哋會事關你如果再 keep 落去, 我哋真係冇地方擺問 : 好我想問一問你, 就係話你話一般嚟講都會 keep 七年 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

107 答 : 唔係, 發票問 : 發票會 keep 七年, 係咪? 答 : 發票問 : 送貨單就可能會短啲時間? 問 : 點解會有咁嘅情況呢, 即係發票又 keep 七年, 送貨單又唔會呢? 答 : 係會 -- 係,sorry 係會計嘅, 佢係做稅 -- 稅局要求嘅, 呢個係問 : 你認識即係稅局要求係咩嘢呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 要求咩嘢呀, 稅局要求咩嘢? 答 :eep 七年嘅發票喺度問 : 發票? 問 : 你嘅認識就話稅局嘅要求只係發票要 keep 七年嘅啫? 問 : 送貨單就唔需要嘅? 問 : 係咪? 好嘞, 咁送貨單如果 keep 咗兩三年, 你會點處理呀? 答 : 毀咗佢囉問 : 咁我想問下你嘞, 你呢度提到嗰個存放嘅地方, 係儲存啲咩嘢呀? 即係儲存以前啲舊文件呀? 答 : 譬如做完, 佢用番紙箱 pack 好晒, 咪擺喺一個地方囉, 公司嘅地方, 某個角落囉 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

108 問 : 即係儲存啲舊文件, 係咪? 問 : 儲存啲舊文件都會包括送貨單嘅, 係咪? 問 : 咁呢個送貨單, 如果係講緊兩三年嘅, 我想搞清楚嘅, 就係你一方面就話會掉喇, 另外又會係儲存喇, 應該係點做呢, 送貨單? 答 : 都話係 keep 兩三年,over 兩三年會掉咗囉, 係送貨單吓問 :eep 嗰兩三年呢,keep 喺邊度呀? 答 : 都話公司嘅某笪地方, 角落問 : 喺你寫字樓嗰度嘅? 答 : 有機會喺寫字樓, 亦都可能擺去我哋有個倉庫, 喺新界問 : 新界邊度呀? 答 : 唐人新村問 : 咁而家嗰個倉庫點呀? 答 : 倉庫咪倉庫擺貨囉問 : 係我即係話你當時儲存文件嗰啲倉庫呀答 : 唔係, 我哋擺番自己貨倉之嘛問 : 咩嘢話? 答 : 我唔係擺喺另外一個貨倉, 倉庫, 我哋擺喺一間公 -- 我哋公司嘅地方嘅問 : 文件就係擺喺你哋公司寫字樓嘅其中一個地方, 係咪? 答 : 係嘞, 係嘞, 或者甚至無佢元朗倉嘅某一個角落問 : 新界嘅倉庫就唔關儲存文件事嘅? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

109 答 : 有問 : 都有? 答 : 有部分問 : 有冇特定去分邊啲文件你儲存喺公司嘅一個角落吖, 邊啲文件儲存喺倉庫㗎? 答 : 冇呀問 : 吓? 答 : 冇呀問 : 嗰個倉庫而家都仲用緊嘅, 係咪? 問 : 有冇搵同事去嗰度搵過啲有關嘅單呀? 答 : 有問 : 幾時搵㗎, 嗰啲? 答 : 你通知我哋咪去做囉問 : 我想問下你, 呢個鉛水事件即係曝光之後, 即係舊年 2015 年 7 月之後喇, 有冇啲你嘅客戶, 即係啲水喉分判商, 去問你哋公司, 叫你哋答 : 有查番啲單據呀? 主席 : 邊間呀? 答 : 佢要求嘅, 我畀番啲資料佢吖嘛主席 : 係吖答 : 好似何標記 olden ay 嗰啲都要畀番啲資料佢, 畀番你委員會吖嘛, 咪同佢做囉 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

110 問 : 即係有幾間都問過你嘞, 係咪? 答 : 何標記同埋金日工程許偉強先生 : 我跟住會去下面另外一個課題主席 : 哦, 好呀食飯先食飯先, 咁我哋晏晝兩點半再繼續, 唔該答 : 兩點半呀? 主席 : 係呀, 兩點半答 : 哦, 唔該晒下午 12 時 56 分聆訊押後下午 2 時 28 分恢復聆訊出席人士如前雋景建材有限公司 ( 雋景 ) 的證人 : 周家平 ( 焊接物料供應商 ( 雋景董事 )) 宣誓繼續作供許偉強先生繼續盤問問 : 周生, 我哋食晏之前, 我就問過你關於有啲你哋公司啲文件點樣存檔嗰啲題目嚟嘅答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 首先我想問一問你, 就係... 答 : 唔好意思, 我對番個咪先 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

111 問 :kay 嘛? 答 : 可以, 可以問 : 得, 首先我想問一問你, 就係一般嚟講公司嘅做法係咪就係話送完貨之後, 你哋公司會將有關嘅送貨單同埋個發票都會係發番畀嗰個客戶嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 即係會有一套嘢就係連埋送貨單同埋佢有關嘅發票都會送晒畀佢哋嘅? 問 : 送去嘅時候, 就唔會再加埋嗰個購貨嗰個 order 嘅, 即係個 purchase order 就唔會特別... 答 : 有機會有問 : 有時有機會? 答 : 有部分公司要求, 都會問 : 好, 但係就肯定嘅就係送貨單同埋發票就一齊會寄畀個客, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 呢個係必然嘅, 呢個就問 : 好嘅, 好嘅如果你哋公司嗰個講緊存檔嗰個情況, 你知唔知道你哋嗰啲發票係咪會同送貨單會一齊擺喺一個 file 度? 答 : 未必會問 : 未必會? 答 : 唔問 : 你認知嘅情況就係發票同埋啲送貨單會點樣存檔㗎? 答 : 應該係有個 file, 我唔識嗰啲, 咪即係好似諸如此類... 問 : 係喇, 好似呢啲 file ranscript by orporation sia, imited

112 答 : 呢隻, 係喇, 係問 : 即係會有一個 file 就係送貨單? 問 : 一個 file 就係發票咁樣嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 分開咁樣嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 應該係問 : 應該係咁? 答 : 其實我都唔係好清楚, 呢啲嘢問 : 唔係好清楚答 : 事關唔係我做嘅問 : 好你剛才講就係話啲發票 -- 因為你都知道可能稅局嘅需要, 就會通常都會 keep 七年, 係咪呀? 問 : 如果送貨單, 你都有提過可能兩年喥? 答 : 或兩至三年喥問 : 兩至三年喥? 答 : 係喇, 係喇, 係喇問 : 咁就會掉㗎喇, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係喇問 : 呢個係咪一個既定嘅程序嚟嘅,... 答 : 唔係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

113 問 :... 即係兩至三年就會掉? 答 :orry, 搶答咗, 唔好意思問 : 兩至三年會掉呢一個係咪一個既定程序, 即係你公司會有職員自動會去做呢樣嘢? 答 : 唔會問 : 唔會嘅? 問 : 你所講話兩至三年會掉, 你係憑咩嘢咁樣講? 答 : 即係有時見到佢太多嘢, 清除嗰啲文件問 : 如果例如啲, 即係例如嗰啲購貨單, 係咪都會同送貨單都差唔多個同樣嗰個形式去處理? 答 : 差不多問 : 好如果我哋見到你遞交畀我哋委員會嗰啲單據, 我哋或者可以睇一睇, 如果我哋睇下送貨單先, 送貨單, 如果我哋睇下 63 頁, 睇到 63 頁嘛? 答 : 係, 見到問 : 呢個就係講緊 -- 呢個都係講緊呢個英國 Y 無鉛錫線嘅送貨單嚟嘅, 就係畀緊粉嶺嗰個工程嘅, 呢度我哋睇到呢個送貨單就有 2008 年 6 月嘅送貨單嚟嘅, 睇到嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 如果我哋再揭多一兩個例子,67 頁,2008 年 8 月嘅送貨單, 見到嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 睇到嘛? 答 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

114 問 : 就亦都係講緊無鉛錫線答 : 唔問 : 睇多張,71, 都係 2008 年嘅送貨單, 無鉛錫線答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 :73 都係同樣都係差唔多 2008 年嗰陣時答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 我就想問一問你, 呢幾張送貨單例如係你交出嚟, 你都搵到交出嚟, 呢個都係幾耐之前嘅送貨單嚟㗎喇, 都有成... 答 : 我知, 係問 :...-- 即係如果我哋而家計番都有七年, 起碼有七年, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 我又想問一問你, 就係點解呢啲又會 keep 咁耐嘅, 又搵到呢? 答 : 首先我講多一次, 我哋喺 15 年搬過倉, 亦都即係呢段時間就有啲嘢清咗, 有啲可能清唔到, 事關我哋啲好多箱文件, 可能數以幾百箱, 變咗又搬 -- 諗住搬個倉, 變咗就一次性咁樣點樣清咗, 有啲可能清咗, 有啲未清, 唔出奇, 有咁嘅可能性問 : 幾時搬倉話? 答 : 我記得好似唔知今年定 -- 我唔記得咗, 應該係呢一兩年問 : 呢一兩年嘅事? 答 : 係, 我啱啱當時 -- sorry, 係請咗個暑期工, 我哋人手已經不足, 嗰段時間就叫佢盡量有咩嘢就盡量清咗啲佢, 可能有啲清咗, 有啲未清問 : 明白呢個你話要清同埋要搬倉, 你就話個時間係一兩年喥, 應該係講緊鉛水事件爆發之前你哋做嘅, 呢樣嘢, 係咪呀? 答 : 絕對係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

115 問 : 好, 我想問一問你, 如果我哋睇呢啲剛才畀你睇過嘅送貨單, 呢啲你都應該知道就係你哋公司會有同事係用電腦打出嚟嘅? 答 : 你講發票? 問 : 送貨單問 : 係咪呀? 送貨單答 : 送貨單? 問 : 唔答 : 冇簽名嗰啲係 print 出嚟問 : 係, 冇錯, 即係如果我哋呢度寫咗例如客戶名稱貨品嗰個種類名稱嗰啲, 嗰啲就係打入個電腦度 print 出嚟, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 可能你嗰啲文件, 啲 hard copy, 我哋所謂, 即係呢啲文件, 你可能入咗倉或者冇咗, 你哋公司會唔會喺個電腦度會有一套 backup 嘅文件存檔咗喺個電腦度, 應該會有留番㗎? 答 : 你講送貨單? 問 : 係喇答 : 送貨單, 我要 check 下, 事關我都唔係好理呢啲嘢, 我要問番同事, 正常就應該可以嘅, 如果送貨單問 : 因為你個口供就話你盡咗最大努力就想搵番出嚟, 我而家其實想同你搞清楚... 答 : 係, 明白問 :... 就係你用最大努力嘅時候有冇話問過啲同事, 叫佢哋搵番電腦啲紀錄出嚟? 答 : 首先一樣嘢, 我就搵番有簽收個送貨單先係有效, 如果 print 咗張送貨單, 冇人簽名, 我覺得好似係冇效 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

116 問 : 如果你搵唔到晒所有有簽名嘅送貨單, 你唔覺得如果你喺電腦度都有個存檔嘅送貨單嘅, 都係值得攞出嚟畀委員會睇一睇咩? 答 : 我冇呢個諗法, 我諗住係已經簽收咗, 已經係一個盡咗自己所能, 亦都搵同事去做, 事關係喺嗰度成好多箱, 亦都嗰啲同事係女仔, 佢都幾有 -- 又污糟, 個環境又唔係好好, 變咗係已經盡咗自己所能已經, 我都好感激佢哋問 : 好, 想問一問你, 就係我食飯之前都問過你呢個範圍嘅, 就係話鉛水事件爆發之後, 都有水喉分判商嚟問過你, 即係關於叫你查一查啲單, 即係佢哋都想有番個紀錄, 呢樣嘢你今朝同我講都係知道㗎嘛, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係, 要求, 係, 唔問 : 何標記亦都有問過你, 係咪? 答 : 係, 係, 唔問 : 金日都有問過你, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 就當時你有冇話去搵過嗰啲單出嚟同佢哋討論下個情況? 答 : 冇, 我只係盡咗自己公司嘅資源, 搵到幾多就幾多嘅心態去做嘢問 : 咁我想問下, 一步一步嚟答 : 好問 : 當時每一間分判商嚟搵你周生, 你係老闆, 佢哋搵你就話鉛水事件, 我哋想查下有關嘅單據, 當時究竟送咗啲咩嘢貨? 等等嘅, 你有冇提供過啲單據畀佢哋嗰幾個水喉分判商呢? 答 : 何標記同埋金日有問 : 係有嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 當時提供嘅同而家你提供嘅, 就住佢哋每一間公司, 當時提供嘅同而 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

117 家嘅有冇唔同? 答 : 應該差唔多問 : 好, 但係就住例如鉛水事件除咗你同啲水喉分判商提供咗啲單據畀佢哋, 等佢哋認番知道番當時送咗啲咩嘢貨買咗啲咩嘢貨, 有冇話特別同何標記傾下, 例如何老闆, 即係何文標先生嘅, 有冇同佢傾過話落嗰啲貨會唔會有問題呢啲咁嘅情況, 有冇同佢傾過? 答 : 係冇問 : 完全冇嘅? 答 : 冇問 : 好, 金日工程呢, 有冇同佢啲同事或者係佢老闆傾過有關嘅事情? 答 : 冇問 : 都冇嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 如果我哋睇番你呢一度交出嚟嘅文件裏面, 我都知道你話盡咗力去搵, 但係似乎我哋就咁睇, 嗰啲購貨嘅嗰個單, 即係 purchase order 嗰個 order, 就得好少嘅咋, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 即係呢啲就係你盡能力可以搵到㗎喇, 係咪呀? 問 : 我哋睇番你畀我哋所有嘅 purchase order 入面, 又咁啱冇一張係講緊話訂錫線㗎喎, 即係你都睇過喇? 答 : 邊張呢? 問 : 如果我哋睇下,84 頁,84 頁你睇到都係講錫條嘅, 睇到嘛? 答 : 係, 錫... 問 : 錫條 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

118 答 : 係, 條問 : 錫條, 係咪呀? 答 : 係囉問 : 錫條嘅答 : 係囉問 :86 頁又係錫條答 : 係,86 呀? 等我睇下先答你係問 : 係咪呀? 問 : 我哋停一停喺 86 頁先,86 頁寫住錫條, 呢個就係金日就佢畀嘅購貨單嚟嘅問 : 例如錫條隔籬就寫咗例如 55, 應該可能 55 磅喇問 : 乘咁嘅問 : 你睇下認唔認得出呢啲字係邊個寫㗎? 答 : 應該我啲同事嘅問 : 你啲同事寫嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 好, 即係方便佢哋即係知道... 答 : 執貨或者之類, 或者可能趕住出貨, 畀啲同事執咗貨先 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

119 問 : 好, 好另外就例如你睇一睇 95 頁,95 頁都係寫住錫条嘅, 睇到嘛? 問 : 亦都隔籬可能都係你哋同事方便起見, 就寫咗 50 力咁樣嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 因為我想知, 就係因為嗰個 -- 睇多一個, 我哋今朝都睇過,98 頁, 寫住高溫錫條嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係問 : 因為就我都翻查過晒你提供嘅所有有關嘅購貨單, 即係 purchase order, 我意思就係話我哋睇唔到有任何 purchase order 係講緊即係寫咗上去係寫錫線嘅, 我想問下你, 即係你喺一路咁多年嘅工作入面, 你記唔記得有啲 purchase order 係寫到明係錫線嘅啫? 答 : 呢個我真係要返 -- 未必記到咁多問 : 好如果我哋睇下 128 頁,128 頁就係關於啟晴邨嘅, 即係關於啟晴邨, 我哋都見到你都攞出咗好多文件出嚟, 因為嗰個係一個大嘅工程嚟嘅啟晴邨, 我哋都見到, 如果睇番你自己做嗰個表, 即係喺 128 頁, 即係你做嗰個表吖嘛? 答 : 唔問 : 入面都間歇咁樣有例如 50 力扁錫條, 又有 -- 間唔中又有無鉛錫線嘅, 有時就一張呢個發票就又有無鉛錫線, 又有 50 力扁錫條嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 即係你嘅講法係咪都係話即係你都係跟番佢 order 乜, 你哋就畀乜咁樣? 問 : 好我想問, 都係問一問你, 就係關於嗰個 50 力扁錫條嘅問題, 你提供嘅有關 50 力扁錫條嘅資料就係咁嘅, 或者我哋可以睇一睇, 即係雖然係英文, 但係我都會解一解畀你聽,50 力扁錫條就係嗰間 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

120 即係我哋知道, 一路講緊呢間公司, 佢哋就係個生產商嚟嘅答 : 佢係生產商問 : 係喇, 佢係生產商嚟嘅首先如果我哋睇一睇 41 頁,1 嘅 41 頁, 41 頁呢度就係講緊 -- 介紹緊呢個呢間公司, 下面有個表嘅, 見到嘛? 答 : 你講, 我盡量 -- 係問 : 我哋如果睇呢個表, 如果你見到呢個表嘅由左邊數上嚟嘅第四行, 我哋見到有啲英文字母, 有, 有嗰啲, 見唔見到? 答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 我想問一問你, 你知唔知呢個 50 力扁錫條係講緊即係呢一個表入面嘅第 13 項嗰度嗰個型號㗎? 你知唔知? 因為呢個係你提供嘅, 即係你就係就住... 答 : 我唔知, 應該唔知問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 唔知問 : 唔知, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 即係你唔知邊隻, 我哋可以搵到係 50 力扁錫條? 答 : 睇番先問 : 好答 : 唔知問 : 唔知? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

121 答 : 唔問 : 我想問一問你, 就住 50 力扁錫條嗰啲送貨, 當時嗰啲包裝, 你知唔知係咁樣長方形一盒盒咁樣送去? 答 : 知道問 : 知道嘅呵? 答 : 唔問 : 你亦都係咪有見過例如呢個咁嘅盒上面有啲 label, 即係你哋會貼住你哋間公司 -- 你哋送去客戶嘅時候, 都會貼住有你哋間公司嘅 label 寫住 50 力扁錫條嘅? 問 : 都會嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 有問 : 隔籬有個 label, 就寫住呢間公司? 答 : 唔問 : 我就就咁睇, 我估, 我未必啱嘅, 呢度就寫咗個叫做 grade 嘅, 即係啲咩嘢級別嘅? 問 : 就寫住 grade 嘅, solder 咁樣寫住? 答 : 應該係喇, 如果係就問 : 我就估計, 係咪應該係講緊呢個表入面嘅呢, 係咪呀? 會唔會係咁樣? 答 : 如果根據理解, 應該都係嘅問 : 應該都係咁樣, 係咪呀? 好答 : 即係我都理解係, 我諗係嘅, 應該 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

122 問 : 即係大家都係睇文件, 估下估下咁估出嚟, 不過即係我 -- 因為我諗因為你接觸嗰個物料會多啲, 所以我就睇下你會唔會同意我講法嘅啫答 : 係, 好問 : 即係有機會都係嗰隻就係呢隻, 係咪呀? 答 : 我諗係問 : 好, 如果我哋睇番喺隔籬嗰個 183 至 216 呢個就係係咪應該係講緊熔點, 你知唔知? 答 : 我真係唔係好清楚問 : 好, 唔緊要因為呢份文件係你提供嘅, 所以我先問你嘅啫你提供呢份文件裏面介紹緊呢一個嘅產品入面, 其中有一頁就我有注意到, 喺 46 頁嗰度嘅,46 頁有一段就講得幾清楚下, 就係話呢啲產品係含有鉛嘅, 對身體就會有害嘅, 跟住佢又講下對啲人體嚟講有啲咩嘢害處等等嘅首先我想問下你, 就住呢一個 50 力係含鉛呢樣嘢, 你今朝同我哋講過, 即係你係知道㗎嘛, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 含鉛對身體有害呢樣嘢, 即係常識嚟講, 你係咪都應該知嘅呢? 答 : 真係唔知喎問 : 即係直情嗰個含鉛係對身體有害呢一個咁樣嘅講法, 你都唔知嘅? 答 : 我真係唔知問 : 唔知, 好好, 呢一份文件係你提供出嚟, 就係話你當 -- 即係你係就住有關呢個嘅物料, 去畀你哋公司嘅有關嗰啲章程, 你就呈交畀我哋委員會, 係咪? 答 : 係之後, 係問 : 你呈交呢份嘢之前, 你有冇人解釋過畀你聽呢份文件係咩嘢? 你有冇問過人入面啲內容? 答 : 冇 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

123 問 : 冇嘅即係以你嚟講, 你覺得含鉛嘅物料, 即係以你嚟講, 含鉛嘅物料係對身體唔會有任何影響嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 我就咁, 我自己理解, 我覺得我以前都係用鉛水喉生活嘅, 我哋喺香港, 我就覺得會釋放到出嚟, 鉛可能喺空氣都有, 汽車會排放到出嚟, 亦都喺人吸收咗, 亦都會排泄到出嚟, 即係我自己咁認知, 唔知有冇個蠢 -- 即係我自己諗法啫, 唔係代表你哋, 即係我自己諗法, 同埋一樣嘢, 我係咁諗問 : 我個問題其實係咁嘅, 你啱啱答我個問題, 你就話可能喺空氣, 可能喺呢樣嗰樣都會釋放鉛, 係咪? 答 : 即係我 -- 係, 係, 係問 : 我個問題就係話, 以你嘅理解, 鉛呢樣嘢係咪對身體唔會有任何影響嘅呢? 答 : 影響, 死喇, 我點 -- 應該有影響嘅, 但係我覺得會釋 -- 即係我知道會釋放, 會慢慢減少問 : 釋放, 會慢慢減少? 答 : 即係會 -- 我唔知, 我睇嗰啲報導咁樣講啫問 : 即係話一般嚟講, 如果你話鉛對身體係有一定程度嘅影響, 你都會 -- 即係你係有呢個方面嘅認知㗎? 答 : 認同嘅, 認同, 認同, 認同問 : 如果係咁, 我想問下你, 你今朝答我哋問嗰陣時都話過, 就住水喉分判商問你攞材料, 你知道佢哋係做水喉分判商嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 亦都知道嗰個房署就係同意咗, 批核咗係用無鉛嘅焊料嘅? 答 : 唔問 : 有冇曾經有任何念頭, 你有諗過水喉分判商問我攞啲含鉛嘅材料, 會唔會有啲問題呢? 咁? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

124 主席 : 呢個問題已經搞咗一朝, 唔好再... 許偉強先生 : 好, 好問 : 我想問下你, 你有冇見過啲工人用呢個綠色一卷卷 Y 嘅焊料, 係真係係做緊嗰個工作? 答 : 冇問 : 冇嗰個一條條嗰個焊料呢, 即係嗰個錫條, 有冇見過? 答 : 冇, 喺電視上看到問 : 電視上見到, 就冇喺實際情況見過, 係咪呀? 問 : 好你今朝有同我哋講過, 就係話你有同過陳小華, 即係何標記嗰個陳小華, 就有傾過啲喉碼啲尺寸等等嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 我想問下你, 就係你有冇同 -- 何標記嘅證供就係咁同我哋講嘅, 佢就話就你曾經同何文標就講過, 就話你會有直接同啲地盤啲打理係有溝通嘅, 我想問下你, 有冇啲咁嘅情況啫? 答 : 溝通就係點樣做喉碼,... 問 : 就係講緊... 答 :... 係溝通嚟嘅, 呢個係溝通問 : 就係喉碼? 答 : 係, 或者送貨時間, 或者搵同事, 嗰啲先係溝通問 : 你同地盤嘅打理嘅溝通一係就係送貨嘅時候, 係講緊? 答 : 你要約佢收貨㗎嘛問 : 係, 送貨嘅時候? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

125 問 : 你約佢收貨, 係你打電話同佢哋溝通吖, 定係你叫啲職員同佢哋溝通? 答 : 職員問 : 就唔係你自己本人? 答 : 如果佢搵唔到我哋, 可能我亦都會, 會, 唔會多問 : 即係你本人都有即係嘗試過同地盤嘅打理去溝通有關喉碼... 答 : 但係唔會太多問 :...-- 溝通有關喉碼嗰個問題嘅? 答 : 溝通喉碼點樣去設計或者長短嗰啲問 : 有冇同地盤嘅打理 -- 即係你自己本人先喇, 有冇同地盤嘅打理溝通過有關焊料嘅問題? 答 : 係冇問 : 記唔記得龍逸邨? 答 : 係咩嘢 -- 唔記得問 : 龍逸邨答 : 唔記得問 : 完全唔記得, 好陳小華佢亦都係同我哋講過, 即係個證供入面, 佢就話就住呢個啟晴邨, 佢一路落嘅 order 就係錫條嘅啫, 佢就話即係都講唔到點解到最後係會供應咗呢個錫線嘅, 我想問下你, 你對陳小華嘅講法, 就話佢一路都淨係 order 咗呢個錫條呢個講法, 你同唔同意? 答 : 唔同意問 : 另外就同你跟進一下嘅啫, 就係有關呢個 -- 今日食晏之前, 我問過你關於東匯邨, 東匯邨, 如果你睇番你嘅證人口供, 有關嘅文件夾 1 第 205 頁, 嗰個東匯邨, 我哋知道就係講緊全部, 即係你而家搵到嗰啲文件都係顯示到全部都係用緊 50 力扁錫條嘅, 我記得我今朝就問 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

126 過你, 就係話你記唔記得就住東匯邨你係提供過有關嘅焊料嘅樣辦, 係 Y 嘅, 你就話唔知, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 我都想你睇一睇嗰個有關嘅文件, 就係如果東匯邨, 睇下 9.3 答 : 唔, 唔該晒問 : 呢個就係啲總承建商交畀我哋啲文件嚟嘅, 如果我哋睇下 9.3 答 :9.3? 問 : 係喇,22145 頁答 :22145 頁問 : 係喇答 :2214 幾? 問 :22145 答 : 我見到問 : 呢個就係總承建商當時就住呢個遞辦呢個程序, 即係交畀房署, 我哋聽到啲證供都係話嗰個辦就係由你提供嘅, 呢度就如果我哋睇番呢一張遞辦嗰個表格, 喺 22145, 如果你睇下, 都係英文, 我會解畀你聽, 係屘二嗰欄就寫住供應商, 就 rosperity 嘅, 就係你哋公司個名, 而後面有啲資料就係 -- 例如你睇下 22206, 睇下先,22151 先, 22151, 係喇,22151 就係有你哋公司發出嘅文件, 入面... 答 :22151? 問 : 係,22151 問 : 有你哋公司發出嘅文件, 有 Y 呢一個松香膏咁樣, 另外就我哋見到喺嗰度就有幅相嘅, 就有 -- 你會見到其中一個都係 -- 你睇到 -- 即係可能唔係好清楚, 不過你會睇到 Y 嗰隻無鉛錫線嗰個嘅咁, 你如果睇呢啲文件, 你會唔會記得番起當時呢一個屋邨, 東匯邨, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

127 係你哋提供呢一個 Y 無鉛錫線作為個樣辦呈交畀房署㗎? 答 : 我應該唔記得咗, 亦都我已經講咗, 佢有機會佢上網 download 我哋啲資料問 : 即係你嘅意思就係話有機會佢 download 咗你啲資料? 答 : 係喇問 : 但係就唔係你哋提供... 答 : 佢可以上網, 都係我哋公司嘅資料嚟嘅, 係睇咩嘢 -- 喺邊度攞番嚟啫, 係問 : 即係你嘅意思就係話有機會佢得... 答 : 佢 -- 係, 上網攞到個資料, 有好多亦都攞完資料之後先同我哋講用咗我哋啲嘢㗎嘛問 : 但係如果你睇完啲文件, 你睇咗當時上樣辦嗰啲文件, 入面亦都有一啲關於呢一隻物料, 有你哋公司嘅名嘅文件嘅, 如果就咁睇, 可唔可以推斷到 -- 你而家睇番, 好大機會都係你哋公司提供嗰個樣辦嘅呢? 我就想知道呢樣嘢啫答 : 我都話有兩個可能性, 佢上網 download, 有機會同我哋攞, 亦都喺地盤攞 sample, 已經 -- 我亦都同時提出 -- 講咗好幾次, 呢隻產品不是我哋唯一嘅代理, 佢喺出面市面上亦都買得到, 上網 download 咗嗰份證書, 都係我哋公司, 佢當然係寫番我公司主席 : 我明, 我都上過你公司網, 不過入唔到去啫, 即係答 : 而家冇㗎喇, 之前就 -- 之前諗住就大家方便啫許偉強先生 : 冇其他問題主席 : 邊位有興趣問? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

128 答 : 手下留情講笑啫林國輝先生盤問問 : 周生, 我有少少問題問你嘅, 我想知道嗰個流程啫, 我係代表瑞安嘅如果你睇一睇答 :... 問 :1 102, 有冇? 答 : 一零呀? 問 :102 答 :105, 係問 :102 答 :105, 係問 : 我哋睇 103 開始, 有冇? 答 :103, 哦, 好問 :103, 我睇到嗰個發票, 如果你睇埋 104, 就個日子 -- 日期嗰度就係 4 月 24 號 2013 年, 就送貨, 我相信送貨就係嗰個日期, 同埋因為有打埋時間, 我唔知個時間係點樣打出嚟嘅, 但係就簽咗名嘅, 而家你再睇番發票, 就亦都係 4 月 24 號嘅,103 嗰度, 係咪? 問 : 即係係唔係當時 -- 我哋知道而家冇咗嗰個 purchase order 嘅, 係咪當時就送貨嘅時候,4 月 24, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 我相信一定係有人做咗個 purchase order 先,24 號就送, 係咪? 有個時間答 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

129 問 : 跟住就同一日, 因為你知道 -- 已經有同事話畀你聽已經送咗貨, 喺同一日有個發票, 啱唔啱? 問 : 同一日有個發票, 我哋見到响呢個 104 嗰度, 亦都有個 fax 嘅, 就係 25 號, 我相信到到最後 fax 咗去何標記嘅時候, 就會係 4 月 25 號, 係咪? 問 : 我想問你一樣嘢就係 -- 因為我而家冇咗嗰個 purchase order, 我相信係可以係譬如呢一兩張嘅發票會係 4 月 24 號當日有同事收到嗰個 order, 就有貨就送咗去... 主席 : 講多次, 唔該林國輝先生 : 唔? 我問咗佢知唔知... 答 : 佢應該 25 號簽收問 : 係, 因為簽收嗰日當日就係 24 號答 : 唔係,25 號, 我睇好似應該係 25 號主席 : 簽收 28 號, 係咪呀? 問 : 簽收係 28 號? 答 : 吓? 問 : 哦,okay 答 :28 定 25 呀? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

130 問 : 嗰個可以係 25 又可以, 因為我見到個 fax 係 25 嘅, 我唔知道係究竟 fax 嘅時候係 fax 咗去地盤嘅 fax 吖, 抑或簽嘅時候係呢個係 28 定係 25 個字, 你見唔見到個健字隔籬? 答 : 健字隔籬, 我唔知道 25 定 28, 我真係唔知, 我都唔識 -- 我都睇唔到呢個問 : 或者唔緊要即係我想知道個流程就一定係有張先, 如果當日有貨, 就會當日送去? 答 : 有時... 主席 : 當日送去? 答 : 有時... 問 : 有陣時未必係, 係咪呀? 答 : 你講完先係, 有時佢哋可能亦都趕住或者第二日 -- 有機會補都唔定嘅主席 : 係, 啱問 : 係, 我明即係個流程就一定係有, 跟住就會有一個送貨單, 送貨單之後就發票, 就個發票同埋個送貨單都會一齊係佢會送去何標記度? 答 : 你講發票? 問 : 同埋送貨單, 兩樣嘢要加埋, 係咪呀? 答 : 送貨單會夾埋一齊, 正常係, 正常會問 : 夾埋一齊就會去何標記度? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

131 答 : 係, 係, 正常會寄去畀佢 -- 發畀佢問 : 因為我哋見到, 如果你睇 107, 同埋唔係,107 大家都係送貨單,106 就係嗰個 -- 亦都係 8 月 10 號嘅發票嘅, 我見到嗰個雄, 你見到 -- 你知道 -- 識唔識一個叫黃貴雄嘅人? 答 : 黃貴雄? 問 : 係答 : 一個判頭, 我知道問 : 係, 係, 判頭或者係我哋有個講法, 叫打理人, 係咪? 答 : 應該係問 : 我見到佢就 8 月 10 號就係個日子嘅答 : 幾多號冧巴? 請問, 唔好意思問 :orry,107 答 : 唔好咁講, 唔該你係,107, 係, 見到問 : 同埋 108, 佢都係 8 月 10 號嘅答 :108, 係, 係, 係問 : 我見到個送貨單亦都係 8 月 10 號, 應該係當日就送到貨, 你亦都有同事响 106 嗰度就出咗個發票, 係咪? 答 : 係, 係問 : 可唔可以咁講, 如果你有貨喺你公司度, 你哋就會可以同一日送到貨嘅? 答 : 有貨? 問 : 係, 即係個 order 嘅時候有貨, 就可以同一日送到貨? 答 : 都可以做到呢樣嘢嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

132 主席 : 咩嘢係咪有貨就唔係 -- 你可能嗰日 print 咗張單出嚟咋喎, 未必嗰日送貨過去答 : 係, 你話... 問 : 唔係 -- 係, 當然, 但係我想問, 因為見到你嗰日 print 咗張送貨單, 但係我哋有人簽名嘅時候亦都係同一日簽名, 因為我見到收貨嗰個簽名係嗰個日子, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔主席 :rint 嗰張單其實係改過答 : 改咗日子, 佢都 -- 本身 print 咗係... 官 : 送貨單改過答 :...8 月幾多號嘅, 係改咗 10 號嘅主席 : 咪係囉, 改過, 所以基本上就係冇既定程序, 不過送貨單好多時就同埋 invoice 一齊送去, 係咪咁樣樣? 答 : 送去畀何標記會計部主席 : 送貨 -- 送去會計部? 答 : 會計部, 唔林國輝先生 : 明白主席 : 送貨單同埋發票係畀唔同嘅人? 答 : 係, 送貨單同發票係畀會計 -- 工程嘅會計, 等佢知道... 主席 : 唔係, 你送 -- 我知, 你送貨去地盤嘅時候就淨係送貨單去嘅啫? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

133 主席 : 就冇發票嘅, 啱唔啱呀? 答 : 係, 絕對主席 : 送貨單加發票就後補畀何標記嘅會計部? 問 : 你之前就响食晏之前就講過話 Y 呢一個焊料或者呢個錫線係啲工人都好熟悉嘅, 所以唔想換過一隻新嘅品牌, 你有咁講過, 係咪? 答 : 呢隻牌子係好通行問 : 係呢隻牌子, Y 呢隻牌子無鉛係好通行? 答 : 係, 係, 喺呢個市場係通行問 : 行業裏面? 答 : 係, 係問 : 即係換句話講, 首先啲工人知道 Y 係無鉛呢一樣嘢都應該係一個共識嚟嘅? 答 : 好難理解點解有啲清楚, 有啲未必清楚問 : 但係基本上, 因為你睇嗰個, 應該睇到嗰個綠色嗰個牌子就寫住無鉛嘅? 答 : 唔? 問 : 睇佢牌子上面係寫住無鉛㗎嘛? 答 : 但係你知道做嗰個亦都未必去識㗎嘛問 : 做嗰個未必識或者做嗰個未必睇答 : 施工者或者其他未必識 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

134 問 : 我明答 : 即係我係咁講林國輝先生 : 好, 主席, 我冇其他問題主席 : 周律師, 仲有冇嘢問? 黃小姐 : 主席, 我有幾條問題黃小姐盤問問 : 周生, 我係代表有利建築有限公司同明合有限公司答 : 你好, 好問 : 周生, 我想問你由雋景 98 年成立開始, 到而家差唔多都十六七年喇? 問 : 都叫做一間頗具規模嘅公司, 係咪? 你同唔同意? 答 : 唔可以咁講, 係算係一個小型 -- 以大公司嚟講, 係一個小型公司嚟嘅, 唔係好大問 : 我就見頭先 -- 今朝早其實畀咗你睇一啲工作嘅參考, 其中有一張, 我或者畀番你睇, 就喺 15.2 答 :? 問 :,boy 15.2 答 :oy 15.2, 即係係咪呢張? 問 :38924 答 : 吓? 唔好意思, 聽唔到, 即係 -- 唔係, 唔係, 唔係 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

135 問 :38924 答 :38924, 好,38 -- 搵唔到問 : 呢個就係其中一張工作參考答 : 搵唔到,38924 問 : -- 你睇螢光幕都睇到答 : 唔好意思, 搵緊, 唔好意思好, 係, 請講問 : 睇到, 係咪呀? 問 : 呢張紙就其實睇到你係同一啲叫做頗大嘅建築公司或者有規模嘅建築公司合作過嘅, 係咪? 答 : 我哋呢個叫做係咪工作紀錄? 問 :15.2, 吓? 答 : 係工作紀錄嚟㗎嘛, 呢個係? 問 : 唔係, 呢個工作參考嚟嘅答 : 係喇, 係喇, 工作 -- 寫番係興盛建築就話起... 主席 : 唔係 15.2 呀黃小姐 :,15.2,38924,major job reference 答 : 係叫做 -- 係呀, 工作紀錄或者 job reference, 係問 : 呢個就係其中一單, 其實仲有另外一張, 就 38928, 都係 15.2 答 : 唔好意思, 睇唔到 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

136 主席 :15.3 答 : 請講問 : 呢度就 38928, 應該答 :38928, 係問 : 呢張, 我哋睇到個日子就 2008 年嘅 7 月做㗎喇, 呢張就亦都係抬頭係寫住你哋工作嘅參考, 呢度就列舉咗你哋做過乜嘢地盤承建商係乜發展商係乜, 同埋用咗呢隻 Y 嘅松香膏 / 無鉛錫線, 我就想問咗先嘅, 就係你列舉呢啲地盤嘅名稱係咪全部就住水喉工程方面都係用咗無鉛錫線? 答 : 唔係, 而係我搵 -- 喺我哋本身有電腦, 當時喺番電腦, 邊個用過地盤, 就打番落個紀錄喺度, 畀番個客人睇嘅啫問 : 但係呢張嘢你係知道會上去房屋署㗎嘛? 答 : 我唔知有啲嘢問 : 咁你做嚟做乜呢? 答 : 事關呢個係 download 落嚟嘅, 你攞去邊度都可以嘅問 : 明白, 但係你做嚟做乜呢其實? 答 : 吓? 主席 : 做嚟畀人做 reference,... 黃小姐 : 做嚟... 主席 :... 不過就唔係一定 ousing ranscript by orporation sia, imited

137 答 :ob reference 之嘛主席 : 因為你個問題就好針對性嘅, 就淨係 ousing, 佢就想話畀你聽係呀, 我𠳕番啲單出嚟... 黃小姐 : 唔係一定主席 :... 邊啲人同我攞過, 我就整咗一個咁嘅嘢出嚟喇, 咁就擺咗喺個網頁嗰度... 答 : 係囉, 你自己... 主席 :... 各位鍾意要嘅就隨便, 你去做咩嘢項目嘅, 就鍾意就攞喇答 : 係喇, 就係咁嘅原因, 我就係咁嘅方便大家去攞資料啫問 : 除咗方便大家, 其實你係咪呢張紙其實都係想證明你係其實同呢啲所謂都有份量嘅承建商合作過, 即係我講一講啲目的, 睇下你同唔同意答 : 咩嘢承建商? 你講係建築嗰啲? 問 : 係喇, 即係呢度列舉嗰啲答 : 基本上公司好少同建築合作問 : 但係佢哋都同你攞過料, 係咪? 答 : 係好少問 : 但係你又列舉咗出嚟, 個目的畀人哋睇到呢樣嘢係有咁嘅目的㗎喎答 : 呢個係絕對要話番畀人聽呢間係咩嘢建築做呢個工程咁解啫, 小姐問 : 好喇, 你即係唔同意我講法, 係咪? 答 : 吓? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

138 問 : 你即係唔同意我講法, 係咪? 答 : 咩嘢話? 主席 : 唔係, 唔係, 唔係, 你問問題喇, 你問 -- 我都唔係好清楚你想佢點樣樣答你, 不如你講埋畀我聽黃小姐 : 主席, 我就想講呢個工作參考其實畀無論係屋宇署睇或者出面啲人睇, 佢其實係想話畀人哋聽我哋係提供過啲咩嘢 -- 呢隻料提供過畀呢啲頗為大嘅建築商咁... 主席 : 總之就提供過晒畀呢啲人, 大小都有黃小姐 : 呢個目的就當然想擴闊自己嗰個客戶, 咁... 主席 : 呢個唔使講, 唔係寫出嚟做咩嘢啫黃小姐 : 除咗呢樣嘢之外, 如果我哋再碌落去睇睇, 有啲係有利建築, 亦都睇到係有啲係房屋署嘅項目, 其實亦都想標榜一樣嘢, 係佢哋對房屋署嘅要求係 -- 對產品嘅要求係有所認識主席 : 佢知道係無鉛, 房屋署亦都訂過, 即係做呢啲 project 問 : 咁即係你都同意呢個講法, 係咪呀? 答 : 我同唔同意講法? 主席 : 佢而家佢個目 -- 佢其實應該咁樣樣問你, 呢度有咁多有利建築中國建築, 又有咁多房屋署嘅項目擺晒喺度, 其實你係知道房屋署嘅要求嘅, 就住焊料呢一方面, 你同唔同意? 答 : 唔同意主席 : 吓? 答 : 唔同意 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

139 主席 : 唔同意? 問 : 好, 我就畀你再睇多一份文件, 你就話你本人就唔係好識英文喇? 答 : 唔問 : 你請啲員工就識英文, 例如凌先生係會識英文, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 我畀你睇睇一份文件, 就係有份 fax 係 ,38833 答 : 係, 唔該晒, 係, 見呀問 : 好喇, 呢張就係 2007 年, 由你哋雋景公司 -- 5 月 30 號年 5 月 30 號, 由你哋嘅公司 en ing 就畀咗明合嘅, 我哋睇首先第一版, 如果可以碌落去睇一睇, 佢除咗講關於有一隻 -- 第一段關於有一隻銀焊嘅物料之外, 如果睇番中間, 我哋就開始 -- 由第三段開始, 就話另外, 我們對房屋署的要求亦都作出一些註解, 希望有助了解我們的產品然後我哋去下一頁, 下一頁, 如果再碌落去嘅 b 同 c 嗰度就好清楚提供話我司供應嘅 Y 無鉛錫線係不含鉛, 成分講到好清楚係乜, 同埋就話符合房屋署乜嘢條款同埋英國嘅水準㗎喎, 你有冇睇到呢度? 答 : 佢呢個 Y 係符合呢個標準嘅, 絕對問 : 呢樣嘢係 07 年你公司嘅員工都已經喺度講緊呢隻產品同埋喺度叫做 sell 緊呢隻產品, 你同唔同意呢個講法? 答 : 唔係, 我同意佢呢隻係無 -- 係可以係無鉛嘅產品嚟㗎嘛問 : 但係佢可以唔使講㗎嘛, 但係佢跟住呢一封信就其實... 主席 : 佢知道, 因為你頭先睇番佢嗰啲 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

140 答 : 講咗好多次主席 :...major job reference 都有講到係同埋嘅 projects 吖嘛黃小姐 : 好主席 : 係咪? 黃小姐 : 明白主席 : 其實佢之前已經講咗呢個 Y 嗰啲 technical data 喺度, 跟住就再夾嗰啲... 黃小姐 : 明白主席 :...major job reference,major job reference 裏面有講到係同埋嗰啲 projects 黃小姐 : 明白, 但係我其實想問, 主席, 或者我簡單啲, 直接啲問問 : 其實點解要咁標榜呢隻係無鉛錫線呢? 答 : 吓? 問 : 點解要咁標榜呢隻無鉛錫線呢? 答 : 我都重新講多次, 係市場要求,ousing 要求, 或者其他要求, 我哋先搵 -- 呢隻無鉛錫線係喺市場已經認可, 不是雋景第一間做嘅, 你搞清楚問 : 明白, 呢樣嘢我明白嘅, 你就話 -- 其實今朝早你就提過有另外一隻 50 力, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 呢隻 50 力其實你個了解係咩嘢嚟? 答 : 吓? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

141 問 : 你個了解係咩嘢嚟? 答 : 了解係乜嘢? 咪一個錫線, 係錫... 問 : 但係入面嘅成分, 你了唔了解? 答 : 係有鉛嘅主席 : 唔係, 我而家問清楚啫我絕對明白人哋要乜, 你就畀乜呢一個道理, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 明白主席 : 好喇, 我淨係想澄清幾樣嘢啫答 : 好主席 : 第一, 房屋署做食水嗰啲焊料, 係要無鉛嘅焊料, 你知道抑或不知道? 答 : 唔知道主席 : 建築署, 都唔知道? 答 : 唔知主席 : 即係你嘅意思就係話你 -- 好喇, 你自己唔知道, 你而家睇咗呢啲咁樣樣嘅資料, 你同唔同意你公司其實有人知道? 答 : 我要問 -- 我諗會有機會, 有機會, 但係我即係 -- 有機會有主席 : 應該係喇, 係咪? 答 : 唔主席 : 即係你睇咗之後答 : 唔 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

142 主席 : 得問 : 好喇, 今朝早個提問, 你啱啱就答咗我哋 50 力嘅料入面係包含有鉛, 你今朝早仲提到一樣嘢係零幾年前, 啲人行內就一路用開呢隻 50 力嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 吓? 問 : 即係話零幾年前, 未用 Y 之前, 啲人係咪用開呢一隻 50 力? 答 : 係三十年, 或者呢隻產品已經係超過三十年㗎喇, 呢隻產品已經, 係超過三十年嘅, 喺市場, 呢隻產品問 :50 力, 你講緊? 答 : 係有鉛嘅錫線, 又可能有 40 力又唔定,50 力又唔定問 : 明白好喇,06 年前, 你哋就其實係咪都係負責緊買開呢隻料嘅呢, 你公司? 答 : 唔好意思, 我聽唔清楚問 :05 06 年前, 未賣 Y 之前, 你哋係咪不嬲都係賣緊呢隻 50 力? 答 : 我哋有提供問 : 吓? 答 : 有問 : 有因乜嘢事幹, 除咗話客戶要求, 即係有一日, 個客戶拎呢啲咁嘅綠色嘢上嚟, 就話我要呢一隻你有冇問客戶點解無𢲡𢲡用開呢隻 50 力, 要突然轉綠色嗰隻呢? 答 : 我冇去真係去深入去了解, 總之個客人話攞無鉛, 我咪走去同佢搵無鉛問 : 但係在商言商, 呢隻綠色, 係人都知係貴啲㗎喎, 真係, 嗱, 呢一卷 50 個 gram 即係等於磅幾 -- 聽完個問題先磅幾, 一磅一, 另外嗰隻一條亦都係 1 磅, 咁即係對比個價錢, 其實係講緊四五倍個分別㗎喎, 你唔會話入咗隻貨係賣唔出㗎嘛, 你會唔會話問點解你會用咗隻綠色嘅呢? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

143 答 : 我如果做呢個訂貨, 我都會睇下會搜 -- 都會知道個市場有冇需要, 如果有需要, 我哋都會去做問 : 即係市場有需要? 問 : 乜嘢市場有需要? 答 : 係市場就係市場囉, 即係呢個我哋做 -- 即係叫做工程也好, 我唔知咩嘢市場, 總之係個市場問 : 你啲同事 -- 即係做 sales 嗰啲喇當然, 會唔會話了解下呢, 即係入啲貨嗰陣時候, 了解下呢兩隻嘢嘅分別, 如果唔係, 佢點賣出去畀人呢? 答 : 當然有分別咗, 已經卷裝同埋條裝, 有寫住無鉛同埋 50 力扁錫已經係兩個名問 : 你員工會唔會了解下入面啲成分個分別喺邊度點解貴咁多咁樣? 答 : 當然睇到一樣嘢, 價錢已經代表已經係有分別問 : 但係你啲員工, 你知唔知... 答 : 我諗員工都唔會咁去理會咁多呢啲問題, 我諗員工問 : 你自己知嘅, 定係你而家代表緊公司講? 答 : 我哋知道係有鉛問 : 好喇, 你畀嗰個公司 -- 你份口供其實都講到呢兩隻料嘅分別嘅, 你啲同 -- 你就夾咗落你份口供紙度, 我帶一帶你去睇睇答 : 聽唔到你講乜, 其實有時真係聽... 問 : 唔緊要, 睇番... 答 : 可能你太細聲, 唔好意思問 : 我想同你睇一睇嗰兩隻 -- 你賣緊嗰兩隻料, 因為喺你個口供紙入面, 第一隻料就當然係無鉛嗰隻,1 24 頁, 即係你份口供夾住嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

144 答 : 我聽唔到, 我聽耳機可能好啲, 我驚大聲咗, 我戴咗耳機就問 : 唔該入面就提到 99 綠色呢卷嘢係話 -- 講到明係可以飲得嘅, 即係話係無鉛, 可以畀人飲嘅, 然後你就再夾另外一款, 就係嗰隻, 嗰隻就 1 46 頁, 如果我哋睇 1 46 頁, 你下面睇一睇附加資料嗰度, 如果碌落去 15 底嗰度, 嗰個有個 dditional nformation, 即係附加資料, 就講得好清楚話鉛可能會傷害你個健康, 同埋亦都話有啲立例就已經唔畀用㗎喇, 即係喺一啲飲用食水嘅地方係唔畀用呢隻料㗎喇, 就算掂到, 都要用番梘洗手, 好喇, 你唔睇啫, 你員工會唔會睇? 答 : 仲有問題一樣, 我都話咗呢啲焊料佢有機會唔係一定燒喺食水, 我都提供兩種產品佢選擇, 即係佢選擇用乜嘢就由佢決定,... 問 : 明白答 :... 唔係我決定, 掉番轉, 佢知道係用喺咩嘢位置或者知道係用喺 -- 甚至無可能唔係燒落去或者塞個窿又唔定, 貪佢軟性, 我自己估計, 有機會當一個鉛以前沙鐵喉攞嚟做灒鉛, 攞嚟做駁口亦都唔出奇問 : 但係我哋今朝早都提及到好多常識嘅問題, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 而你哋賣呢隻貨品其實唔係單只呢個物品, 其實賣親呢隻無鉛係通常同嗰隻黃色罐一齊賣嘅, 我見你哋嗰啲章程都講呢樣嘢, 即係話大家要一齊賣, 賣親呢隻 owerflux 黃色嗰罐, 就一定要黐住呢隻黃色嘢㗎喇, 你哋係想咁樣做嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔係, 不是, 事關呢隻 Y 個松香膏, 以我所知, 係一個清潔劑嚟嘅, 係事關銅喉有機會有油, 其他我 -- 即係我問番水喉佬點解一齊用, 佢就話番畀我聽呢隻係清潔劑嚟嘅, 基本上清潔個銅嘅表面, 令佢接合得好啲, 係比鉛用 -- 錫 -- 咩嘢錫用 -- 燒錫用嘅, 即係唔好理佢 50 力扁錫又好, 無鉛錫線又好, 都要加呢隻嘢落去, 係咁簡單, 一種叫做清潔劑, 當係, 一齊用嘅問 : 好喇, 今朝你就提到你就覺得如果有啲水喉承判商走嚟問你買嘢, 你覺得正常就會賣呢隻卷狀嘅畀佢哋, 如果佢哋唔係, 就會首先問對方要乜, 就確實問清楚, 先至畀嘅, 就話你啲同事就會自動波咁問嘅? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

145 答 : 你錯, 你聽咗我啲嘢問 : 其實你個講法係點? 答 : 其實個客人要卷條, 係尊重客人, 佢要乜嘢, 我就畀乜嘢, 唔係我去話畀佢聽用乜嘢, 唔好意思, 我係建築材料, 唔該問 : 唔係, 我唔係將個責任畀你, 周生, 我想搞清楚究竟其實 -- 了解下件事, 因為真係而家件事發生咗, 我哋想了解下究竟邊 -- 係咪有咩嘢改進地方, 唔係話想將個責任針對你所以我淨係想了解點解你話正常係要用卷裝, 即係點解你啲同事會咁樣即係同嗰啲水喉分判商講正常都要用卷裝嘅, 你今朝早就有講過呢樣嘢答 : 我冇講過正常用卷裝, 我冇講過主席 : 我冇聽過答 : 我冇講過呢件事問 : 我其實寫就係... 答 : 冇, 完全係冇答呢個問題, 唔好意思問 : 我哋睇番謄本喇遲啲答 : 好, 唔緊要問 : 好喇, 個客人要乜, 你就畀乜, 譬如喺一啲情況, 你係知道一啲分判商係上咗呢隻物料係 Y 嗰隻無鉛嘅, 而... 主席 : 呢啲我哋咪已經探討過, 探討過嗰啲唔好重複, 係咪? 黃小姐 : 好答 : 責無旁貸, 最緊要 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

146 問 : 另外我就想問, 莫海光其實同你啲關係係點㗎? 答 : 客人同... 問 : 熟唔熟㗎大家? 答 : 唔係好熟問 : 莫海光訂貨嗰陣時係同你直接訂吖, 定係經你啲同事訂? 答 : 經我啲同事問 : 有冇同你直接訂過? 答 : 好少問 : 如果佢訂嗰陣時, 佢點同你講? 點樣落 order? 答 : 呢啲我同事同 -- 講嘅嘢, 我唔喺在場, 我答你唔到問 : 你自己呢? 答 : 佢好少搵我問 : 好少, 但係都有, 係咪? 答 : 唔多問 : 佢同你講嗰陣時, 佢講乜呢? 答 : 佢咪話落錫... 問 : 佢落咩嘢? 答 : 錫條問 : 錫條? 問 : 譬如佢落錫條嗰陣時, 你係知道佢做水喉工程嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 我都重新講過, 我唔知佢燒喺邊度, 地盤咁大, 燒喺邊個位置, 我哋 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

147 唔可以理會他問 : 明白, 呢樣嘢我知嘅答 : 知道, 咁 okay 喇問 : 莫先生就有啲指控, 我就想 -- 今朝早就同你探討過第 29 段佢個口供所講, 我就想畀你睇一睇佢另外一段嘅, 就係 1 17 頁第 33 段答 : 好, 唔該問 : 好喇, 佢就喺 33 段嗰度尾嗰度就提及到雋景職員 en 事後就問 -- 多次打電話畀你哋雋景同埋和興, 亦都追問賣畀佢哋嗰啲焊料有冇含鉛, 雋景嘅職員 en 同埋和興嘅呂先生初時也表示不知道, 後來在本人再三追問下, 雋景的職員 en 告知本人, 雋景向其供應商查詢後, 才知道涉事嘅錫條含鉛量為 50 per cent, 好喇, 你同唔同意呢個講法呀? 主席 : 同唔同意乜嘢講法? 問 : 同唔同意你職員方面係曾經收過... 主席 : 佢知唔知先喇黃小姐 : 好問 : 你知唔知? 阿 en 有冇同你講過? 答 : 我印象唔記得問 : 呢件事爆咗出嚟嗰陣時當然收到好多電話, 係咪? 答 : 唔, 唔問 : 你啲員工有冇話大家坐低傾一傾嘩, 咁大件事, 係咪要 check 下究竟賣咗啲咩嘢畀人? 有冇咁嘅動作? 答 : 有探討過, 亦都將來點樣去做嘢 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

148 問 : 探討嗰陣時候, 啲員工有冇同你講話我哋賣咗隻出去, 係原來有鉛㗎有冇咁同你傾過? 答 : 我哋冇, 即係... 問 : 係咪 -- 你所知, 你啲員工係幾時先開始知道錫條係含鉛量為 50 per cent, 你知唔知? 答 : 應該佢哋應該... 問 : 一早知? 答 : 有部分會知問 : 阿 en 會唔會知? 答 : 我諗會知嘅問 : 幾時知吖佢? 答 : 嘩, 呢個我諗佢都幾耐㗎喇, 我諗就賣 -- 訂貨嗰陣時都應該都知㗎喇, 正常問 : 所以呢度你就答唔到我哋究竟有冇收過一個咁嘅電話, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 從莫海光, 係咪? 答 : 我諗佢亦都 -- 你既然咁, 呢個莫先生? 問 : 係, 莫海光先生答 : 問番阿 en 我同事, 係問佢幾多 -- 含鉛幾多, 係咪? 問 : 係答 : 好簡單一樣嘢, 我哋送貨落去畀莫海光先生, 地盤有 -- 我哋有寫住有鉛㗎嘛, 本身個箱, 已經解答到呢個問題, 第一第二, 我個同事阿 en 點解咁遲覆你, 希望 -- 佢想了解清楚先畀番個答案佢, 我估計問 : 呢個唔係我哋嘅證人, 係莫海光先生 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

149 答 : 即係我解釋番畀你聽有咁嘅理由, 即係會點解咁遲答番你問 : 明白第二樣嘢, 莫先生今朝早都其實有問過呢個 topic 㗎喇, 其實, 佢就話佢就同你訂係訂啲有鉛嘅, 冇貨先至訂啲無鉛嘅, 但係佢其實口供上面都有補充過少少嘢嘅, 或者我讀畀你聽, 睇下你同唔同意答 : 唔, 你講問 : 佢就話不嬲都訂開呢隻嘅, 佢就話到有一次就冇貨, 暫時冇貨, 要隔幾日先有, 佢就話而家等住用, 太多工人停咗工, 好犀利㗎啲人工於是莫海光就話睇下有啲乜嘢嘢可以代替到錫條, 可以拎過嚟, 跟住就話啲供應商, 就包括你, 咁就跟住拎過嚟, 就喺電話度講你所理解, 你知唔知道有冇呢件事發生過呢? 答 : 我已經答咗問題, 今朝已經話我哋唔會建議佢轉, 點解呢? 一來個價錢一個問題, 二來, 市面上亦都有賣呢隻產品, 我已經答咗㗎喇, 今朝問 : 明白答 : 好問 : 莫先生其實係知道呢隻綠色卷狀同埋錫條都有得賣嘅, 係咪? 問 : 你所理解, 其實你識咗佢幾多年? 答 : 你咁樣問我, 我諗超過五年至六年啩問 : 講緊唔係而家開始數, 係嗰陣時 2013 年答 : 你講 -- 咁上下喇問 : 即係 2013 年對上數? 答 : 我都唔記得咗, 有啲嘢, 太耐, 係咪呀? 問 : 係你所理解, 就係點解你會識得佢嘅? 主席 : 呢啲有咩嘢問題, 有咩嘢關係呢? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

150 答 : 我好奇怪黃小姐 : 我想睇下佢係咪經人介紹定係點樣主席 : 唔該, 下一個 topic 黃小姐 : 好問 : 我就想問埋莫先生同你訂貨時, 有冇同你報價? 答 : 我哋本身有個價目表, 佢應該知道問 : 佢有冇... 答 : 有問價錢, 有個價目表問 : 你有畀個價目表佢? 答 : 我哋都係跟番個價目表個價錢報畀佢啫, 正常問 : 但係你肯定有畀個價目表佢, 係咪呀? 答 : 我唔肯定有冇, 總之你話有冇 -- 知唔知個價錢, 佢應該要知, 佢事關佢找錢畀我哋㗎嘛, 佢要貨到畀錢㗎嘛問 : 明白最後一樣嘢, 莫生就提及到同你訂貨就好麻煩嘅, 就話就好繁複, 次次都要用現金找數問 : 係有呢樣嘢? 問 : 如果話要 -- 我見你有啲都可以六十日賒貨嘅, 嗰啲係咪適用於其他人吖, 定係點? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

151 問 : 係適用於咩嘢人? 答 : 適用同佢有個 -- 譬如佢做咗一段時間, 或者佢經常性有來往嘅, 咪可以做到呢樣嘢囉問 : 好喇, 我就想再問埋你, 周生, 有份關於元州嘅, 你個口供第 12 段就提及到 -- 第 12 段,1 15 頁, 有個表度就睇到元州邨就冇個 lead-free solder wire 嘅, 我就想問一問... 答 : 第幾頁? 問 : 第 15 頁,1 15 頁答 :15 頁, 係, 請講問 : 就睇到你係寫住呢一度係冇個星喺度嘅, 我就想帶一帶你去睇你 -- 即係呢度會唔會係因為你係睇咗一份文件係 1 60 頁?orry, 應該 1 57 頁先問 : 你係咪睇咗呢一份, 所以就覺得係 -- 即係整咗嗰個表出嚟呢? 答 : 唔係, 你睇到佢有張㗎問 : 係, 好喇,... 答 : 喺下面有寫住 -- 你哋明合有張㗎嘛問 : 明白, 但係我仲想畀你睇跟住有一張單係 1 嘅 60 頁答 :60 頁, 好, 請講問 : 如果睇番發票, 其實係有訂過英國 Y 無鉛㗎喎, 呢個莫海光答 : 佢有攞, 就畀佢囉, 我講咗好多次問 : 明白, 我知道呢樣嘢, 只不過你個表度,... 答 : 吓? 聽唔到 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

152 問 :... 你個表頭先第 12 段嗰度就冇個星 mark 住話係有買過無鉛, 呢度想問你會唔會係搞錯咗啫? 答 : 哦, 呢個可能同事睇漏咗都唔定嘅, 你講嗰個無鉛錫線佢之前元州邨有攞過, 係咪呀? 問 : 唔答 : 我同事有冇打落去, 我睇下先, 第幾 -- 呢個可能打漏咗問 : 係呀, 但係你如果睇番個送貨地址係元州, 佢擺錯咗位, 似乎答 : 元州? 問 : 係呀, 你睇番 1 60 個送貨地址係元州街嘅答 : 佢有機會... 主席 : 個表唔係一定啱嘅,1 裏面嗰啲答 : 唔係, 即係... 主席 : 唔係, 我哋明黃小姐 : 主席, 完成覆問 -- 唔該, 完成盤問周先生 : 主席閣下, 我方冇補問主席 : 唔該, 周先生, 畀完證供, 可以走得, 唔該晒答 : 麻煩晒, 唔該晒你哋, 唔該晒主席 : 跟住仲有冇證人? 仲有冇證人? 許偉強先生 : 和興 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

153 主席 : 或者我哋唞十分鐘先, 唔該下午 3 時 38 分聆訊押後下午 3 時 56 分恢復聆訊出席人士如前主席 : 下一位和興, 係咪呀?r am? 林顯昭先生 : 係, 主席, 我代表和興嘅代表律師主席 : 好林顯昭先生 : 而家傳召和興嘅呂衍粦先生作供主席 : 好請過嚟呢邊, 呂先生和興製品廠 ( 和興 ) 的證人 : 呂衍粦 ( 焊接物料供應商 ( 和興合夥人 )) 以本地話宣誓作供林顯昭先生 : 主席, 早前呂先生就係做咗一份英文嘅證人口供, 唔好意思, 主席, 我係唔知道佢係邊一個文件夾嘅咩嘢編號主席 :1,1 林顯昭先生 : 同埋個頁數, 我係唔清楚嘅, 唔好意思主席 : 第 8 頁林顯昭先生 : 我就會喺呢度讀出主席 : 好林顯昭先生 : 用英文讀出佢個口供嘅 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

154 the ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water appointed on 13th ugust 2015; and Wo ing anufacturing ompany. ************************* W, ( 呂衍粦 ), of ooms , wai n ndustrial uilding, os ai in ai oad, wai hung, ew erritories, ong ong, do solemnly sincerely and truly give evidence as follows: 1. am one of the two partners trading under the business name of Wo ing anufacturing ompany or 和興製品廠 (hereinafter referred to Wo ing ). he other partner ui an hak onie ( 呂文澤 ), is a silence non-executive partner who has no knowledge of the day to day running of the business of Wo ing. am duly authorized to make this witness statement on behalf of Wo ing in response to the request by the ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ( the ommission ) appointed by the hief xecutive in ouncil under section 2 of the ommission of nquiry rdinance (ap.86)( the rdinance ) on 13 th ugust 2015 pursuant to section 4(1) of the rdinance. 2. nless otherwise specifically stated, the evidence am about to give in this witness statement are true and correct to the best of my knowledge information and belief or based on documents within my possession ranscript by orporation sia, imited

155 3. n this witness statement, shall adopt the abbreviations and terminologies used in the letter dated 2 nd ovember 2015 issued by essrs. o & o on behalf of the ommission. 4. Wo ing is a trading company and part of its business is related to the trading of metal ( 五金 ). oldering materials are also traded. 5. With regard to soldering materials Wo ing sells the following types: (a) stainless steel welding rods ( 不銹鋼焊枝 ); 林顯昭先生 : (b) tin soldering stripes -- it s a typing error, m sorry, it should be strips., 錫條 / 錫絲... 主席 :igh temperature,high temperature 林顯昭先生 :igh -- m sorry, 主席, 唔好意思, 因為我諗我... 主席 : 你嗰份係咪唔同我哋嗰份? 林顯昭先生 : 係, 我攞錯咗一份, 係, 係應該 -- 唔好意思 (b) high temperature tin soldering strips ( 高溫錫條 / 錫絲 ); (c) lead free tin soldering threads ( 無鉛錫線 ); (d) phosphorus alloy soldering stripes ( 銀焊枝 ). 6. ccording to the records of Wo ing, we have not supplied any soldering materials to any of the nvolved states except possibly state and state. he reason for saying the above is that according to the records of Wo ing, various ranscript by orporation sia, imited

156 quantities of materials (including soldering materials) were sold and delivered to constructions sites at gau au ok and hek ip ei (further explained below), but we have no knowledge of whether such materials were used for the state or state. urther, we have no knowledge of how the soldering materials were intended for and how they were used, thus we are unable to confirm whether the soldering materials so sold were for the purpose of jointing the pipes in the fresh water plumbing systems in state and/or state 7. uring the period between 2011 and 2012, Wo ing did supply various metal goods on a number of occasions to one r. ok oi wong ( 莫海光 ) (hereinafter referred to as r. ok ) to be delivered to two construction sites in gau au ok and hek ip ei. 8. was informed by our clerk, s. au ai a ( 艷麗霞 ) (hereinafter referred to as our s. au ) and verily believe that on each of the said occasions r. ok would telephone our s. au, to place orders for goods. he unit price would be quoted and agreed and our s. au would record the particulars of the order in our rder ook contemporaneously stating the following: (a) date of order; (b) identity of the customer, and customer reference (if any); (c) the description of the goods so ordered and quantities; (d) agreed unit price; (e) date of delivery and place of delivery; (f) other relevant remarks. 9. opies of the relevant pages of the rder ook are ranscript by orporation sia, imited

157 marked as -l and attached hereto. 10. hereafter our s. au would check whether we had the necessary goods in storage, and if not she would immediately place orders for purchase from our suppliers n the date of delivery, Wo ing would issue an invoice to be delivered together with the ordered goods to the place of delivery to r. ok. ither r. ok or his representative would sign and return a copy of such invoice acknowledging receipt of the invoice and goods. 12. opies of the relevant invoices are marked as -2 and attached hereto. 13. s seen from -l and 2, part of the goods sold by Wo ing to r. ok were various quantities of high temperature thin solder stripes (namely 幼錫條 ( 高溫 ) or 高溫幼錫條 ) and o.12 welding rods (namely #12 號不銹鋼焊枝 ). 14. Wo ing obtained the supply of the said high temperature thin solder stripes from one ak ing heung (hing ee) etal td.( ). opies of relevant invoices issued by are marked as -3 and attached hereto. he solder stripes supplied were 50% 幼錫絲 or 50% 幼錫條 he said 50% percentage is a description of the amount of lead contained in the soldering material. t is my understanding that the higher the percentage of lead content in the soldering material, the higher would be the temperature tolerance or melting point of the soldering material. 15. Wo ing obtained the supply of the o. 12 welding roads from one ver nited etal o., td. ( ). opies of relevant invoices issued by are marked as -4 and attached hereto ranscript by orporation sia, imited

158 16. he unit price of the said materials fluctuated from time to time depend on the market. ated this 23 rd day of ovember 林顯昭先生 : igned by r ui and interpreted by me. hereafter are the attachments of the witness statement. 主席, 我讀完喇主席 : 係林顯昭先生主問問 : 請呂先生, 你是否確認呢一份證人口供裏面嘅內容... 主席 : 採納作為你今次呢一個調查委員會嘅證供呀? 林顯昭先生 : 係, 會否, 多謝主席問 : 會否採納呢份證人口供作為你今次調查嘅證供? 答 : 確認主席 :kay 林顯昭先生 : 冇其他問題, 主席主席 : 冇其他問題, 好呀林顯昭先生 :kay ranscript by orporation sia, imited

159 許偉強先生盤問問 : 呂生, 我想問一問你, 就係幾時成立和興? 答 : 哎吔, 呢樣嘢呀? 應該係 92 年問 :92 年喥? 答 : 如果我冇記錯嘅話問 : 好, 好, 唔該一路到而家都係供應啲有關五金嘅材料嘅? 答 : 係呀, 建築材料問 : 好, 我想問下你同莫海光認識咗幾耐? 答 : 超過十年㗎喇問 : 超過十年? 問 : 呢十年佢都有同你訂貨嘅? 答 : 好濕碎, 唔係話成日有, 耐唔中問 : 耐唔中? 問 : 想問下你, 何標記有冇同你訂過貨? 答 : 冇問 : 冇? 答 : 冇問 : 金日工程呢, 有冇? 答 : 都冇問 : 都冇? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

160 問 : 例如莫海光同你訂貨嘅時候, 你會唔會知道例如佢訂嗰啲貨係攞嚟做一啲房署有關啲公屋嘅工程? 答 : 都知嘅問 : 知道嘅就住公屋嗰啲工程, 你知唔知道例如房署佢例如一啲物料用嘅材料咁, 即係包括焊料, 係需要要批嗰啲辦, 先至確實邊啲辦可以用, 呢樣嘢你知唔知? 答 : 唔知問 : 唔知道我睇一睇你嘅證人口供就第 10 頁嗰度第 5 段就講出話和興就買幾種唔同嘅焊料嘅問 : 我就第一同埋最後嗰樣暫且我哋唔使討論住, 淨係講中間嗰兩樣先, 好唔好呀? 答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 首先就係個高溫錫條或者叫做錫絲, 另外就無鉛錫線, 首先我哋講一講無鉛錫線, 好唔好呀? 答 : 唔問 : 無鉛錫線, 呂生, 我想問一問你, 就係幾時第一次接觸到呢個無鉛錫線? 答 : 接觸就接觸咗好耐問 : 好耐? 問 : 都有超過十年? 答 : 有, 應該有問 : 有, 係咪呀? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

161 問 : 當時係喺咩嘢情況下知道有呢一隻焊料? 答 : 因為有啲做工程嘅, 都成日接觸到嘅, 呢啲嘢就問 : 做工程, 成日接觸到, 係啲工人同你傾吖, 定係話即係有人係問你話想買呢隻定係點? 答 : 有人想問我 -- 問我囉, 問我咪 -- 買邊隻, 我咪搵邊隻囉問 : 即係佢哋當時就直情同你講得好清楚就係無鉛錫線咁嘅? 答 : 唔係, 錫線, 淨係無鉛 -- 係錫線問 : 錫線, 錫線, 有冇講無鉛㗎? 答 : 都有問 : 都有嘅? 答 : 因為行內錫線多數係指係無鉛嘅, 一卷裝, 幾多卷, 要幾多卷嗰啲多數係講無鉛㗎喇, 即係响行內嚟講就問 : 明白, 明白, 所以以你所知, 如果嗌個名... 答 : 就知道... 問 :... 叫做錫線, 通常個認答 : 認知問 :... 我哋個認識都係講緊無鉛嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 係喇, 係喇, 因為佢要講話幾多卷咁吖嘛, 卷裝問 : 好, 明白所以即係你呢一隻綠色一卷卷嗰啲, 即係都見過好耐㗎喇呵? 即係十幾年前都有見過第一次, 係咪呀? 答 : 見過, 見過問 : 見過㗎喇? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

162 答 : 見過問 : 好喇, 如果我哋講緊嗰隻高溫錫條... 主席 : 唔好, 賣幾多隻, 無鉛錫線, 你賣幾多隻? 答 : 就一隻之嘛主席 : 一隻之嘛, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 就一隻主席 : 賣幾多錢? 答 : 哎吔, 賣幾多錢? 主席 : 係答 : 即係一個市價嚟㗎喎, 嗰個市價浮動㗎喎, 應該百零鈫一卷喇, 我覺得主席 : 吓? 唔記... 答 : 百零鈫一卷喇主席 : 百零鈫, 唔記得幾多喇? 答 : 呢個唔記得喇主席 : 唔該答 : 因為我哋係唔係話做好多呢啲, 我哋做好少嘅咋其實問 : 高溫錫條同埋錫絲有幾多隻牌子, 你賣嘅? 答 : 我哋只係賣一款嘢嘅咋喎, 我唔知有幾多, 我淨係... 問 : 淨係一款嘅啫? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

163 答 : 淨係賣一款嘢問 : 因為你呈交畀委員會就有呈交過呢一隻扁啲嘅, 呢個就係你所講嘅高溫錫條, 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係問 : 你點樣知道佢係高溫? 答 : 因為我哋個客人就嗌我哋搵高溫, 其實我都唔識嘅問 : 你唔識嘅? 答 : 咁話搵高溫, 我咪同佢搵囉, 我搵到, 個供應商話呢隻係㗎喇, 我咪就係話點解會係呢? 佢話 50 個 per cent 就係叫做高溫㗎喇, 佢話含鉛量越高, 就個熔點就越高, 所以就叫做高溫, 就呢隻叫做高溫問 : 即係佢話含鉛量就越高... 答 : 個熔點就越高問 :... 就熔點就越高? 答 : 係, 咁就... 問 : 呢個係個... 答 : 個供應商同我講嘅問 : 供應商同你講嘅? 答 : 係呀, 佢話呢隻就係高溫喇咁囉問 : 哦, 咁樣咁即係話你嘅認知就係例如如果我哋將呢隻高溫錫條同呢個無鉛錫線嚟到比較, 嗰個熔點, 以你嚟睇, 係邊個高啲? 答 : 呢個我冇考究, 唔知喎問 : 唔知道, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔知喎 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

164 問 : 即係冇話比較過, 係咪呀? 答 : 冇, 冇, 唔問 : 但係就客人話要搵高溫錫條, 你就去啲供應商嗰度問下何謂高溫咁樣, 就叫佢哋搵一隻出嚟? 問 : 一路就係畀呢隻你喇咁? 答 : 係喇, 係問 : 你就知道綠色嗰隻就係無鉛喇? 答 : 唔問 : 高溫呢隻錫條錫絲咁, 知唔知佢係含鉛嘅? 答 : 知問 : 知道含鉛嘅? 答 : 知, 知問 : 即係你鉛 -- 我哋嚟講, 即係我哋而家大家都知, 鉛對身體有害呢樣嘢, 你一路係咪都知道? 答 : 知問 : 知道嘅? 問 : 就住呢兩種物料嚟講先, 無鉛錫線同埋呢個高溫錫條, 一般嘅用途, 呢兩隻物料都會攞嚟做水喉焊接工程, 呢樣嘢你知唔知? 答 : 咁唔係話單一嘅, 好多都要用到佢嘅, 唔係單一嘅問 : 我哋首先講下水喉先, 其中一個主要嘅用途係做水喉嘅, 呢樣嘢你同意嘛? 答 : 都唔係主要, 佢有 -- 即係可以做佢 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

165 問 : 可以做, 可以做食水喉? 答 : 係, 可以做, 係問 : 你話有啲其他用途嘅, 你知道有啲咩嘢用途? 答 : 譬如冷氣機嘅焊接等等, 冷氣機盤嘅 -- 即係盛水盤嗰啲都可以用得佢, 都用到佢問 : 冷氣機, 冷氣... 答 : 即係你冷氣機嘅接駁喉嗰啲都會用佢問 : 呢個你係點知番嚟㗎? 答 : 呢個係普通常識嚟嘅啫問 : 常識, 好用邊隻, 冷氣機用高溫吖, 定係用嗰隻無鉛呀? 答 : 兩隻都得啩,... 問 : 係咪呀? 答 :... 我相信問 : 呢兩隻嚟講, 高溫同埋無鉛, 如果講以價錢同埋個成本嚟講, 邊隻嘅利潤會多啲? 答 : 無鉛嘅利潤會高啲問 : 無鉛嘅利潤會高啲嘅? 答 : 唔, 唔, 唔問 : 高幾多喥, 同嗰隻比較? 答 : 一般我哋做貿易買賣都係維持到十零二十個 per cent 咁上下, 即係咁你就 -- 我照咁計上去, 即係買賣問 : 即係你講嗰個利潤大概十幾個 per cent 喥? 答 : 即係嗰個毛利, 係, 就毛利 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

166 問 : 唔係, 我係問你話如果無鉛錫線同埋個高溫錫條喺利潤方面爭幾多個 per cent 喥? 答 : 你咪照 -- 都係一樣之嘛, 你照加落去, 嗰個無鉛就十零個 per cent, 有鉛十零個 per cent, 嗰個價錢越高, 個 per cent 就越多, 應該係咁計問 : 好, 你呢個鉛水事件之前, 有冇話聽過做水喉工程就要用無鉛呢樣嘢, 有冇聽過? 答 : 冇聽過問 : 冇聽過你喺你嘅證人口供都提過, 就話如果你送貨嘅話, 就會畀番啲發票就係個客戶簽番咁樣嘅, 係咪呀? 問 : 你哋公司係冇出送貨單呀呵? 答 : 有出送貨單問 : 有答 : 但係一般佢唔係以公司嚟計, 以個人嘅身分同我哋, 我係冇送貨單嘅, 一定係發票問 : 唔係好, 明, 點樣公司個人話? 答 : 即係我哋登記, 因為佢莫海光先生, 唔係話佢公司, 我唔知佢公司叫咩嘢名, 所以我都同佢私人交易嘅問 : 好, 我哋睇一睇個發票, 例如 32 頁咁,32 頁, 例如你畀莫海光嘅發票, 例如就住呢張發票, 會唔會另外仲有送貨單? 答 : 冇, 就係呢張嘅咋問 : 冇㗎喇, 就係呢張嘅呵? 問 : 你剛才話會有發票嘅情況, 有時都會有送貨單嘅, 嗰啲係咩嘢情況? 答 : 公司對公司 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

167 問 : 公司對公司, 即係你個抬頭會寫番公司嘅? 答 : 係, 公司名對公司名, 就會送貨單問 : 呢個就係你哋一向嘅做法, 係咪呀? 問 : 我想問下你, 就係鉛水事件發生咗之後, 莫海光先生有冇同你話傾過大家訂嗰啲貨會唔會有問題咁樣? 答 : 有問過我問 : 有問過你? 問 : 佢係點問你呀? 答 : 佢問嗰啲喂, 你嗰啲係咪有鉛㗎? 我話係呀咪咁囉, 因為佢要求係同我訂咁嘅嘢㗎嘛問 : 即係等陣先, 佢就去問你話佢訂嗰啲貨係咪有鉛嘅咁樣問你, 問你知唔知? 答 : 唔問 : 你就答番佢, 好簡單, 就話係呀, 我知有鉛㗎跟住佢點呀? 答 : 就佢話點解有鉛? 我話你訂呢啲 -- 係訂呢隻貨吖嘛問 : 即係佢有冇話好似將個責任擺喺你度話應該係要用無鉛㗎喎, 你知唔知呀? 咁呀? 答 : 咁又冇, 咁又冇, 咁又冇問 : 冇呀? 答 : 冇, 冇, 冇問 : 我哋聽番嚟, 即係從其他口供度聽番嚟, 就知道嗰隻無鉛嗰隻比起嗰個有鉛嗰隻就嗰個熔點係高啲嘅, 即係難燒啲, 難熔啲嘅, 你知唔知有呢樣嘢? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

168 答 : 我唔知問 : 你唔知嘅? 答 : 我唔知問 : 有冇聽過 50 力呢個牌子? 答 :50 力, 咪而家出事咗, 咪先聽過, 冇出事, 我... 問 : 之前就唔知嘅? 答 : 唔問 : 之前唔知嘅你供應呢一隻, 你畀我哋呢一隻嘅即係你所講嘅高溫錫條, 有冇牌子㗎呢隻? 答 : 冇問 : 冇, 知唔知喺邊度造㗎? 答 : 我唔知喎問 : 吓? 答 : 唔知邊度造喎問 : 賣咗幾耐呀你? 答 : 我哋好似係佢地盤佢同我買之 -- 咪就係買 -- 嗰陣時開始賣, 我好少賣問 : 咪住先, 呢一隻物料都係你其中一隻賣嘅焊料, 係咪? 答 : 唔問 : 我想知道, 首先就係呢一隻物料, 唔好淨係講同莫海光, 咁多年嚟, 你做生意, 賣咗幾多年喥, 呢隻物料? 答 : 我賣咗唔係好多年, 賣咗應該七八年喥問 : 七八年喥? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

169 問 : 除咗同莫海光供應呢隻物料之外, 都有供應畀其他人嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 好少, 有問 : 有? 答 : 好少問 : 都有嘅? 問 : 其他嗰啲好少嗰啲客戶係咪都係做水喉㗎? 答 : 唔知喎問 : 唔知? 答 : 唔問 : 即係唔知佢做乜嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 係呀問 : 唔知即係如果一般客戶訂呢啲咁嘅貨嘅時候, 你亦都唔會特別去問話係做咩嘢用途嘅? 答 : 冇問嘅問 : 冇嘅, 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 但係賣咗成超過五年, 都唔知呢隻喺邊度造? 答 : 唔知, 因為大陸又有, 本港又有, 都唔知邊度造問 : 咪住先答 : 佢一紮紮㗎嘛問 : 你話大陸有, 本地又有? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

170 問 : 即係你都聽過有啲喺大陸生產嘅? 答 : 聽過問 : 係咪呀? 答 : 唔問 : 我睇到你嘅文件都話, 就你哋唔係一盒盒送嚟嘅? 答 : 一紮紮嘅問 : 係一紮一紮咁樣, 即係用啲咩嘢扎住呀? 答 : 鐵線問 : 鐵線扎住嘅, 一紮紮嘅? 問 : 以你嘅認識, 一紮入面都應該係同一隻牌子嘅, 係咪呀? 即係同一個生產商嘅, 會唔會話一紮入面摳埋咗幾種? 答 : 冇, 冇, 冇, 同一個生產商問 : 就唔會嘅, 但係你就話聽過有內地生產商, 亦都有本地生產商? 許偉強先生 : 我冇其他問題黎先生 : 係冇牌子㗎? 我想問一問答 : 冇牌子黎先生 : 你點樣去落單, 同生產商攞? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

171 答 : 咪就高溫錫條囉黎先生 : 就叫做高溫錫條, 佢就畀呢隻你㗎喇? 主席 : 你同德興祥訂㗎嘛? 答 : 係, 德興祥主席 : 係咪呀? 答 : 係, 係, 係主席 : 德興祥就淨係寫幼錫絲答 :50 個 per cent 咁主席 :50 度,50 個 per cent 幼錫絲我想問一問你, 呢度你就話你哋公司賣高溫錫條, 我聽莫海光講就係佢打電話去訂嘅時候, 佢淨係訂錫條嘅咋喎, 點解你畀呢一隻佢呢? 答 : 唔係, 佢第一次訂就肯定唔係話訂錫條, 係應該話高溫錫條主席 : 第一次嗰陣時? 答 : 高溫錫條之後, 用嗰 -- 都係呢隻喇, 咁就錫條, 即係都係嗌錫條, 唔會話再嗌高溫錫條主席 : 得有冇人有問題, 請問? 冇, 走㗎囉喎, 唔好等到最後一個好, 唔該晒, 走得答 : 唔該主席 : 唔該晒 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

172 答 : 唔該你林顯昭先生 : 主席, 請容許我離庭主席 : 好林顯昭先生 : 感激主席 : 得, 過一個先, 隨便許偉強先生 : 主席, 處理完兩個供應商嘅口供, 聽日我哋會繼續就係梁偉健先生嘅口供, 同埋就係仲會有黃貴雄, 另外就係有位趙小姐嘅, 希望聽日可以 -- 應該可以完成到佢個... 主席 : 完成晒佢哋? 許偉強先生 : 係, 希望係咁主席 : 跟住呢? 許偉強先生 : 跟住就星期四開始, 我哋就會係處理番有關呢個房署有幾位我哋加咗嘅證人嘅主席 : 得許偉強先生 : 第一位就應該係有位 eung 先生,r eung 嘅主席 : 呢個就係... 許偉強先生 :ssistant director 主席 : 就係嗰陣時嗰個? 許偉強先生 : 就係嗰個, 係喇主席 : 係, 得, 好許偉強先生 : 第二位就係黃比先生主席 : 得, 好我哋聽日處理埋何標記嗰啲, 先至再決定時間進度, 我哋下個星期一就係唔會有呢個聆訊嘅, 下個星期一, 因為黎先生有啲 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

173 事許偉強先生 : 好另外可能我哋亦都要考慮埋即係就住林德深先生個身體狀況, 睇下幾時會再傳召佢返嚟, 完成佢嗰個證供主席 : 係許偉強先生 : 不過... 主席 : 我想問一問在座咁多位, 林德深先生, 仲有幾多嘢要問呢, 請問? 王先生 : 我大概十分鐘左右主席 : 十分鐘喥, 另外呢? :bout ten minutes as well. 主席 : 十分鐘即係半個鐘頭一定完, 係咪? 得, 好, 唔該下午 4 時 25 分聆訊押後 ranscript by orporation sia, imited

174 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 (10.01 am) uesday, 19 anuary 2016 (on former oath) : r Wong, please wait for a second. r am, understand you are not feeling well. re you not well, r am? an you hear me, r am? re you not well? W: o. have vomited. et's get on with it, until have to stop and go to hospital. : o you want to continue to give evidence, or do you want to return home to take a good rest? W: would like to be here as best can, because have already come here. : f at any time you feel unwell, let me know; understand? W: Yes. : don't know how long the questions will go. ny time, just show your hand and tell me. r Wong? ross-examination by W (continued) W: r am, yesterday, we were talking about the first time you saw the Y lead-free solder wire. You said you saw it on the construction site. will continue with this line of questions. When you worked on the site, when was it? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

175 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. When the pipes were being fitted.. ut that would only happen after the work commenced for some time?. he fittings started with one or two rooms.. o you saw this Y lead-free solder wire. nder what circumstances did you see it? id you see it when you inspected the rooms?. knew work was going on. took a look.. o you inspected the site, the workplace and you saw it,. o. and then you never saw it again?. id it occur to you that this one was the one approved by the ousing epartment, the soldering material approved for use?. 'm not that sure. only knew that it was the soldering material.. an you tell us which site it was: ai hing, wai uen or what?. ai hing.. et's turn to wai uen. id you see the same solder. o. wire again?. nd you have been engaged in dozens of other sites. id you see the same solder wire again?. have no recollection, but didn't inspect the wire at ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 2 -

176 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 close.. aybe can put this to you, r am. Yesterday, you said you agreed that soldering material had to be lead-free. You knew it back in the 1990s and you also knew that some materials had been approved. o shouldn't you be responsible for checking the material on the site, to make sure that they were the approved materials?. was just walking by. could see it (coughing).. r am, you said you knew there was a sample room, there were photos. he approved materials, one of them was the soldering material?. only took a glance. was not responsible for the monitoring system.. id you ascertain that it was the approved solder wire?. Well, there were so many things -- pipes, copper pipes, valves, and so on.. he sample room was there for some purpose, and that is you had to install those things approved, as shown in the room?. hey would also indicate the locations.. What about materials?. Yes, materials were there.. he sample room was there for a purpose, to make sure you can check that workers used those materials? ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 3 -

177 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. hat was not my responsibility. nother one was responsible for management. : You are talking about the room. t was a mock-up. t was there to show the coming and going of different pipes. t's a timber mock-up. t's not just for showing the approved materials. W: r am, you knew that a sample of soldering material was submitted for approval, and you also knew that other materials had to be submitted for approval by the ousing epartment. id you know that?. Yes.. f you knew that other materials also had to be approved, as the plumber, shouldn't you ascertain what materials have been approved?. he formal approval had not been given for all.. ll right. fter the approval was given for all, there must have been a time when you would know what had been approved?. was only given the catalogues by the company.. o you should have a full set of catalogues showing the materials that have been approved by the ousing epartment?. When submitted parts and of the form, yes.. o you should be very concerned about this. You said that when you submitted part and part, you were ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 4 -

178 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 concerned whether the materials in the annex was actually those used, otherwise you got points deducted?. hey would deliver a lot of things, hundreds of materials at a time, so would take a look at all of them.. o it would be reasonable for you to be concerned about the materials approved by the ousing epartment? : Why don't you reserve this for your final address? W: lease turn to /17. his is the notes of meeting between the W and you. aragraph 3: "r am confirmed that the relevant form, WW46, and the relevant material declaration form were signed and submitted by him, but according to his recollection, he could not confirm whether the pipes and fittings installed at the ai hing state and wai uen state were installed in accordance with the contents of the form submitted fully." o why couldn't you be sure? Why couldn't you confirm that? Were you not responsible for that confirmation, for confirming that?. ery often, we would not have the forms with us when we did the inspection. We would just be making sure that ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 5 -

179 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 it's done in accordance with the law.. et's turn to /25. aragraph 3, it's your statement: "anitary fittings and pipes were procured by the construction company. he valves and miscellaneous fittings were procured by o iu ee, and there was no procurement in accordance with WW46 part and part, and accordingly installation was not done in accordance with that form." When did you know that?. fter the meeting, when they published the report, after they had published the report, knew there were problems.. o you didn't know that before you had the meeting with the W?. t was only just for a few months, but within one month we would have to install all the pipes and valves.. o you didn't know whether o iu ee were doing it in accordance with the form you submitted, WW46?. here was no number. ow could know what was in store? t was too long ago. cannot remember now.. ll right. lease turn to /16. /15 and 16 relate to a letter dated 11 uly 2015, the letter you sent to the W. an you see that? an you recognise this letter? his is addressed to am. r haw referred you to page 15. now want you to take a look at page 16. ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 6 -

180 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 t's what you told W: "(n nglish) o, please be reported that all our completed works are according to the ong ong Waterworks tandard requirements and being accepted by all the involved parties." an you see that? f you did not know whether the pipes and materials were in conformity with the form WW46, on what basis did you say this?. t was from another company. here was no brand name on the tap.. o there was no basis on which you could tell the W this particular statement?. Well, that's how the letter was typed out.. r am, would like to ask you another area. Yesterday, you talked about why you resigned. n the submission of materials, you talked about projects () to () from uen un, in hui Wai to the olice arried uarters, and you then said that the materials given by o iu ee were not in compliance with the WW46 and a lot of warnings had been given in relation to that, and you were very worried and therefore you resigned.. hat was one of the reasons.. Yesterday, the counsel also walked you through this. fterwards you worked at a piece rate and then you also ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 7 -

181 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 signed 10-odd WW46 forms.. hat's not the case. n fact, it was in compliance, and the site -- mean, the approval wasn't given as soon as the concreting work began. he approval letter of the W had been issued first, approval had been given first, before filled in the form. efore that, it was still the time when the sample submissions were made.. nd in relation to WW46 part and approved, in relation to the -- in compliance or in relation to materials used, that was the reason for your resignation?. (hinese spoken).. y question is this: if you were so concerned about whether the materials were in compliance, after you resigned, when you worked as a piece-rate worker, wouldn't you be more concerned?. o. y that time, it was already known that an authorised person or architect should be asked to complete the form.. y question is very simple. ccording to you, after you resigned, you still signed a dozen WW46 forms, but you should also be concerned that the materials should comply with the standards before you signed the forms?. t first, the architects at my company completed all the work before it was passed on to me, but eventually it ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 8 -

182 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 was towards the last day or within just two weeks of the completion deadline.. o that's your answer?. t was not in compliance and then we had to beg the architect to help, otherwise we wouldn't be able to do it.. kay. oving on to another question. would like to refer you to /11, your first statement.. (oughing and vomiting). : an you carry on, r am?. will try my best. : o, don't try your best. f you don't feel well, let's not continue. et's resume when you are well again. lease stop giving evidence today, r am. hat's the end of r am's evidence for today. lease go home and take a rest. We will send a letter to r am again and invite him to come again when he is better. We will adjourn now. We will contact r am later. hen whether we have another witness or not, we will decide on that later. r am, see that you should not continue to give your evidence, based on your condition. We will contact you to invite you to come and give evidence again, when you are well. ranscript by orporation sia, imited - 9 -

183 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 (10.20 am) (10.38 am) We will adjourn now. ( short adjournment) W: hairman, my firm represents rosperity. hairman, with your approval, would like to ask r how a ing to join us as a witness. : ll right. lease ask r how to come in. W (affirmed) : lease take a seat. xamination-in-chief by W W: r how a ing, can you hear me? n a moment, when you answer questions, please speak to the mic and please speak louder. r how a ing, you are a director of rosperity uilding aterials o td?. Yes.. ouder, please.. Yes.. n nglish, it is rosperity uilding aterials o td?. Yes.. You are now here as a witness, and you are now giving evidence to the ommission. You have submitted a witness statement to the ommission. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

184 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Yes.. he date is 26 ovember Yes.. o you have any objection if read out your witness. o. statement to the ommission? W: ay, hairman? : Yes. W: (n nglish) "Witness statement of how a ing". aragraph 1, "ntroduction": (aragraphs 1 to 12 were read in nglish) he table is as follows. states: (1) n hau state: there was a 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. wire. (2) hing o state: there was lead-free solder (3) hoi ook state: there was 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. (7) ung om state: there were lead-free solder wire, 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks and silver brazing sticks. (8) ai hing state: there were lead-free solder wire, 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks and silver brazing sticks. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

185 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 (9) ung Wui state: there were 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks and silver brazing sticks. (10) Wing heong state: there were 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks and silver brazing sticks. (11) wai uen state: there were lead-free solder wire, 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks and silver brazing sticks. (aragraphs 13 to 16 were read in nglish) (1) n hau state: the contact person was ing op -- purchasing department. (2) hing o state: the contact persons were r ee (um ee) and r ok (Wing ing). (3) hoi ook state: the contact persons were ing op -- purchasing department or r iu (ang ee). (7) ung om state: the contact person was olden ay -- purchasing department. (8) ai hing state: the contact person was o iu ee -- purchasing department. (9) ung Wui state: the contact person was olden ay -- purchasing department. (10) Wing heong state: the contact person was olden ay -- purchasing department. (11) wai uen state: the contact person was o iu ee -- purchasing department. (aragraphs 16 to 19 were read in nglish) ranscript by orporation sia, imited

186 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 nvolved estates: (1) n hau state: the contact persons was ing op -- purchasing department; and the means of placing orders was by purchase orders. (2) hing o state: the contact persons were r ee (um ee) and r ok (Wing ing); the means of placing orders was verbally. (3) hoi ook state: the contact persons was ing op -- purchasing department, and also r iu (ang ee); the means of placing orders were purchase orders and verbally. (7) ung om state: the contact person was olden ay -- purchasing department; and the means of placing orders was purchase orders. (8) ai hing state: the contact person was o iu ee -- purchasing department; the means of placing orders was purchase orders. (9) ung Wui state: the contact person was olden ay -- purchasing department; and the means of placing orders was purchase orders. (10) Wing heong state: the contact person was olden ay -- purchasing department; and the means of placing orders was purchase orders. (11) wai uen state: the contact person was o iu ee -- purchasing department; and the means of ranscript by orporation sia, imited

187 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 placing orders was purchase orders. (aragraphs 19 to 21 were read in nglish) nvolved estates: (1) n hau state: appendix. (2) hing o state: appendix. (3) hoi ook state: appendix. (7) ung om state: appendix. (8) ai hing state: appendix. (9) ung Wui state: appendix. (10) Wing heong state: appendix. (11) wai uen state: appendix. (aragraphs 21 to 27 were read in nglish) here is a statement of truth: " believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true and the opinion expressed in it is honestly held." igned by r how a ing, dated the 26th day of ovember r how a ing, just read out your witness statement. an you remember it?. Yes.. lease speak up.. Yes.. re you willing to submit this witness statement of yours as your evidence-in-chief? re you willing to do ranscript by orporation sia, imited

188 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 that?. Yes. W: hairman, have nothing else for the examination-in-chief. he witness is now ready for other questions. W: (hinese spoken).. his is the first time. ross-examination by W. r how, represent the ommission. have some questions for you. irst, would like to ascertain some background information. irst, with regard to rosperity uilding aterials o td, did you set this up yourself?. Yes.. When? What was your work before then?. efore then?. efore you set up rosperity.. have had a number of jobs.. Were you involved in plumbing works?. You mean working on the site? o, no, not at all.. Were you involved in plumbing works in any way?. o.. id you work in the construction industry? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

189 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o.. What did you do?. 'm a salesperson.. n what field?. was responsible for sorting goods, warehouse work.. What did you sell?. lastic pipes for drainage works.. part from you, you are the boss, who is also involved?. y wife.. o both of you are directors?. Yes.. nd both of you are shareholders?. Yes.. ow many people are there in your company?. ore than 10. can't remember whether it's 14 or plus. r 16.. ow many employees -- let me finish -- how many employees of yours are responsible for dealing with your clients or with purchase orders?. think it would be at least six to eight employees dealing with orders.. What about sorting the goods?. o. hey were not involved in dealing with orders.. re you saying that those sorting materials are not responsible for orders? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

190 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o, they wouldn't be involved.. rosperity is in the business of supplying hardware items?. Yes.. here are hardware items for fresh water systems and other systems --. 'm not sure.. What do you mean?. lease repeat your question.. he materials you supply would be those used for water pipes, drinking water pipes?. Yes, believe so.. You have been in this business for more than 20 years?. We are general supplier.. 'm not saying what ultimate use the materials are put to. on't think about that part first. 'm talking about the materials that you sell, that you supply, would include materials for use in drinking water plumbing systems?. Yes.. We can see some information on the materials that you supplied. ow many companies in ong ong, owloon and would sell such materials?. Well, you can find these materials in each and every hardware shop. would say more than 80 per cent of the ranscript by orporation sia, imited

191 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 shops selling hardware would sell these.. o 80 per cent of the hardware stores in ong ong would be selling the materials that you supply?. Yes.. You started in 1998, 17 years?. 18 years.. nd you have been involved in many ousing epartment projects?. Yes.. an you remember that in respect of ousing epartment, how many projects have you been involved in?. can't tell you the figure. can't remember.. ut quite many?. Yes, would say so. don't know whether you would call that "many" because we are not the only one supplying the materials.. ore than 20?. don't know. have to check.. We know that you have business dealings with some of the plumbing companies. can now tell you the names. irst of all, o iu ee; "yes" or "no"?. Yes.. olden ay?. Yes.. ang ee? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

192 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Yes.. Wing ing?. Yes.. o here's my question: how long have you been dealing with o iu ee?. set up my company in t would be more than ten years.. r o an iu said he knew you a long time ago, before you set up rosperity. You were colleagues, former colleagues?. o, no, not at all.. ow did you come to know him?. was working on a warehouse, plastic factory. was a worker responsible for sorting materials.. o o iu ee has been dealing with you for more than ten years?. ertainly.. o you have a record of more than ten years dealing with o iu ee. Would they be placing orders with you personally?. Yes, maybe, but sometimes they would send the order to my colleagues. We have many different products. f it is an urgent factor, we have a list of parts, a price list, so we can entertain urgent orders.. ometimes it will be you, sometimes it will be your ranscript by orporation sia, imited

193 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 employees?. sually not me.. When o iu ee placed an order with you, who from o iu ee would be doing that?. hey had a high turnover rate for some period. cannot remember who was involved.. o you have no recollection at all?. o many things happened. cannot possibly remember -- s hiu, but for those before her, cannot remember.. You can remember s hiu?. Yes.. han iu Wah?. think he was the one dealing with ai hing state.. he foreman; right?. Yes.. o did he place orders with you?. here were contacts. We are basically supplying brackets. here are different sizes. ometimes the design changed and had to talk to him over the consequential changes.. o you have to talk about the brackets?. Well, mainly we were in the business of providing brackets.. s for han iu Wah, did he place orders with your company? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

194 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o, he must have definitely gone through the purchasing department.. What about olden ay?. oughly the same time as r o, ten-odd years.. o for olden ay, the staff would place orders with you. o you remember what staff; s am, s ok?. Yes, basically these two.. What about r iu in Wong from ang ee?. Yes, know him, not very well.. usiness dealings for how long?. ot very long.. everal years?. efinitely.. ver five years?. ore or less. ay not be as long as five years.. o he would also personally place orders with your company?. Yes.. Wing ing, r ok oi wong, you knew him as well?. Yes.. lso more than five years of business dealings?. Yes.. nd he also personally placed orders with you?. Yes.. hank you. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

195 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. You are welcome.. mentioned a number of companies, which are subcontractors of plumbing installation; you are clear about that, right?. Yes.. o my question is this. et's narrow down the scope of discussion. What we are discussing is solder materials. o my question is this: when was the first time you came across lead-free solder? When did you first become aware of it?. really cannot recall. believe 2000 and something. don't remember when.. et's say in general you have learned about this for ten years?. believe so.. We are now in Yes.. nder what circumstances were you aware of lead-free solder?. irst of all, you must understand the reason why my company was incorporated. he client requested some materials, so we looked for the materials, we sourced some materials on request of clients. We don't have stock ready for sale. We source materials on the request of clients. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

196 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. r how, please focus your attention to my question. y question is very simple: under what circumstances did you first come across lead-free solder?. hat is on the request of clients, that we look for this type of solder.. o you remember which client?. here are lots of subcontractors out there. really cannot recall.. o, on the customer's request, you were to provide lead-free solder wire?. o. he request was that it must come in reels.. his one? (ndicating). Wait a minute. he customer said they request solder in reels like this? Were you shown this one?. ossibly, but cannot remember.. o, when the customer requested for a sample to be provided or for you to source the solder, what work were they engaged in?. We would not ask specifically what works. We would only source the materials based on the customer's request.. Whether you did the sourcing on your own or on a customer's request, you would rely on the supplier's recommendation, as far as materials were concerned?. ight.. o you did contact sales of the suppliers of materials, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

197 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 right, and discuss the materials?. Yes, discuss, but not in detail.. ll right. o at least some discussions?. ight.. o my question is this. et's say if a salesperson said. o.. o?. o. this, "r how, let's discuss this solder", would the salesperson show you this? (ndicating).. o nothing would be shown? o the first time when you saw this green reel, which we now understand to be Y lead-free solder wire, when was it?. believe more than ten years ago.. o can put it this way: you just told me that a client requested you to say, "ey, look for this one", and then you did the sourcing, so there must be a way for you to source the material and saw it for the first time. o was it supplied by the salesperson on the first occasion?. o. We went out to ask about where this was available. We asked around in the trade.. orry, wait a minute. You said you would go out and ask yourselves -- ask who?. uppliers of the product. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

198 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o you knew the supplier of this product?. Yes.. nd you asked how you could source it?. Yes, a simple question.. nd then the supplier showed you?. o, by placing orders.. y question is this. You asked where you could get this, and he showed you; right?. asically -- well, don't recall whether have seen it or not. : r how, can you sit a bit to that side. ean closer to that side (indicating r how's right), please. hank you. W: What we really want to know is this: when you first saw the lead-free solder material in green reels, we would like to know when, the first time you saw it, who showed you?. don't remember.. You said that you asked suppliers?. Yes, approached the suppliers.. ould it be suppliers who showed you this?. Well, the customer showed me, and then approached the suppliers. : nd then you placed orders with the supplier. W: o you now recall that it was the customer who ranscript by orporation sia, imited

199 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 showed you? ecause earlier you said you didn't remember.. Yes, it was the client who showed me and then approached the supplier, in my recollection, but 'm not quite sure because of lapse of time. pologies.. o you took this to the supplier?. o, approached the supplier.. o when you approached the supplier, what was your description of the materials you were looking for?. ecause the materials were already available in the market, and when could find the telephone number of a supplier, would place the orders with the supplier.. y question, once again, is this: when you approached the supplier, what did you tell the supplier? What materials did you want?. he lead-free solder wire. Yes.. Which supplier was that?. f remember correctly, it was ak in. : ow to write it?. 'm sorry, couldn't write it. have limited education, as a warehouse worker. W: 'm not asking for the nglish name but in hinese you know it's ak in?. Yes, that's in my recollection.. o ak, --, and in, --, that's the ranscript by orporation sia, imited

200 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 transliteration. o at the time you told ak in that you wanted this solder, did you specify that it should be lead-free?. already told the supplier that it should be this one.. he brand Y?. Yes.. nd when you first came across the material, subsequently, did you have the chance to read the specification of the material?. irst of all, don't understand nglish. econd of all, did not read it seriously.. o, when you first came across this green reel of Y solder (indicating), did you at the same time come across this owerflux, this yellow can of owerflux? (ndicating).. Yes, together.. o, to your knowledge, were the two to be used at the same time?. Yes. he plumbing workers told me.. nder what circumstances would you discuss with the workers that the two were to be used together? nder what circumstances did the plumbing workers tell you that the two should be used together?. t the time of placing orders, was told that the two should be used together. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

201 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. t happened more than ten years ago; right?. really cannot remember now.. We just want to understand the general picture. o do you know, in relation to this brand, Y (indicating), there are two types of solder materials, leaded and lead-free, and we understand that for this one in green (indicating), it's lead-free. s there another kind in yellow which is leaded?. Yes, know now.. When did you know?. Well, normally, the product is available in the market, but after the incident happened, came to know that the product is indeed available in the market, but we hadn't ordered it before.. or the record, although understand that you can't read nglish, would still like to refer you to a product specification. hat's 15.2, page Yes.. et me explain this to you. here are two words, "solder wire", and here, the description is this: "oth lead-free and leaded wire..." o first of all, this is in relation to the brand Y, the relevant plumbing products, and you can see the word "Y" here.. Yes, only know this one. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

202 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. ever mind. We also have pictures in the paper. ut let's focus on solder wire. t says here that for easy identification, green reel equals lead-free, yellow equals leaded. o my question just now was on this. You said you only knew recently that in fact Y also produced leaded solder wire. o how recently did you have this knowledge?. ust after the lead in water incident happened.. nder what circumstances did you realise that?. When our company reviewed in greater detail the situation -- mean, had to get a better understanding, so then knew about that. had never seen the yellow reels before, never. o checked the details and discovered that.. o who told you that in fact Y also produced leaded solder?. mean, when checked more carefully once again, be it the catalogue or something else, when asked someone, learned more about it.. ut the catalogue is in nglish, so did you read it yourself or did you ask your staff to read it for you?. have some colleagues who understand nglish, so asked them to read.. o, after reading the catalogue, your colleagues then ranscript by orporation sia, imited

203 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 told you, "ey, boss, in fact Y also produces leaded solder"; right?. don't recall but believe it's contained in the information.. o who told you?. cannot recall clearly. cannot remember.. o, when people said "Y", before the incident, that is, you would have said that this is the only one, and you knew it was lead-free. s this correct, if say that in plumbing works, this one (indicating green reel) should be used?. o, didn't know.. You had so many clients who are plumbing contractors who have been placing orders with you. id you know that they were ordering the materials for the drinking water plumbing works?. didn't know.. You didn't know. : lease repeat your question. W: You had so many clients who were in the business of contracting work of plumbing works, and they place orders with you for these green reels of product. idn't it occur to you that the materials would be used for drinking water plumbing works?. didn't know. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

204 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 : have a question. f course, you have many different clients. ome clients, you may not know the nature of business of those clients of yours. can understand that. et's say o iu ee, which is carrying out a lot of government projects and ousing epartment projects, if suddenly you receive a call from o iu ee, let's say the caller says, " want something lead-free", you will not know exactly what use it is. ut if he asks for something lead-free, you have been selling lead-free solder wire for years, so you may infer or you might imagine or believe that the lead-free solder wire would be used for drinking water plumbing?. t could be for watering plants, it could be for a drinking water system. : Yes, of course. here are all kinds of possibilities. You did submit brochures and the material to o iu ee for onward submission to the ousing epartment, and the description would start by saying, "his is for the drinking water system".. Well, it's in nglish. don't really understand what it is. : am talking about the literature, the brochure, the documents; right? You are a distributor for 3, you sell a lot of 3 products, suppose?. sell only one or two products of theirs, one or two, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

205 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 not all. : kay. ever mind. et's continue. f o iu ee asked you for soldering material, you would not guess the actual purpose or actual use. ut if they order soldering material in green reel, chances are it's for drinking water plumbing system.. (odded head). : r it can be a order for non-lead-free soldering material, it will be for watering plants, for the car park or whatever. o please just be direct in your answer. W: f we look at things in more detail, when you supplied materials to a client, you would not ask the purpose for which it is used. ut generally speaking, you have known for more than ten years that this one can be for drinking water plumbing?. et me repeat -- how should put it? : f it's for watering plants, there is nothing you can do about it; is that not the case?. here is no way can control the use to which it is put. orry, this is my first time doing this. : ut would you be saying that it's more likely that it's used for drinking water plumbing than for watering plants? on't think that we are only interested in very sophisticated ideas or that we are ranscript by orporation sia, imited

206 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 laying traps for you. W: et's not talk about whether you have any control or say over how the client used the material you gave them. : Well, it's in your witness statement. You have told us, you have told the ommission, you have been informed that there is nothing -- civil proceedings or criminal proceedings, and so on and so forth.. Well, there's a lot of pressure. : Yes, but be that as it may, tell us what you know. f you tell us what you know, it will take a lot of the pressure away.. hank you. W: You cannot control how your client used the material. You have known this material's nature or use for more than ten years. t's lead-free solder wire. o have a simple question. You know that this solder material, solder wire, can be used in drinking water plumbing works; you do know that?. Yes.. f you look at some of the brochures of your company , page his is a brochure of your company, rosperity's brochure. t's a list of projects your company was involved in. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

207 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Yes.. here's no dispute about that; right?. Well, we were the supplier.. Yes, yes. : Your company supplied the materials in these projects. W: t's entitled, "Y owerflux and lead-free solder wire".. Yes.. nd it's pointed out that for the and projects are relevant, and there are some examples. lease take a look at page and the list of projects. o this is a brochure serving as an introduction to the Y owerflux and lead-free solder wire, and also, in that brochure, you mention the projects. o you did know that the flux and the lead-free solder wire can be used in projects and that the ousing epartment would approve the use of such materials?. Yes.. When did you know for the first time that approval from the ousing epartment for this material would be given?. cannot remember. t's sometime after 2000, 2000-something.. o, roughly speaking, ten years ago? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

208 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. oughly speaking, yes. : f you look at this brochure, it was produced in o you, back in 2006, knew this material. t's dated ecember o in 2006 you knew this, that Y and related materials had been used in those projects?. Yes, more than ten years, if you ask me. W: o the first time you knew that the ousing epartment would approve Y and other materials, it will be more than ten years ago?. Yes, if you refer to this brochure.. or ousing epartment projects, when it comes to soldering material, for the last ten years, you knew that this green reel would be suitable for projects? (ndicating).. don't know. : lease repeat your question. W: o you know that this was the only soldering material, the green one (indicating), which would be suitable for projects?. guess there were other products suitable for their projects.. or this green reel solder wire (indicating), apart from this one, what others would be suitable for projects?. cannot remember, but would say that knew there ranscript by orporation sia, imited

209 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 were alternatives; there were other products.. o, for the brochures produced by your company, you would not recommend or mention other soldering materials for projects?. o. was only interested in selling this particular soldering material.. 50 per cent lead solder wire, when did you start to sell it?. t was just a name by which the material was called. t has been around for many years.. o more than ten years?. ore than ten years. : ow many years?. would say more than 30 years. : t has been around for more than 30 years. W: When did you come across this 50 per cent lead material for the first time?. client wanted to purchase it. : When you were an employee?. o, after have set up my company, and it was produced in ong ong and sometimes on the mainland. t is not a brand name. t's just a product name. : didn't understand.. We were just talking about the product being manufactured in the. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

210 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 W: o there were -produced ones and there were non- produced ones?. ome were produced in ong ong. : efore you set up rosperity, you already knew that?. Yes. : What's the country of origin of the.. product that you are selling? : ver the years, all along?. When set up with my business, some were produced in ong ong, but after that they were produced in the. W: When you started to sell this 50 per cent lead --. You know, it was a way of trying to describe something in nglish by calling it "50 lik" or 50 per cent lead.. What were your clients doing? What projects were they doing?. didn't try to ascertain. only supplied what they asked me to supply.. o, coming back to the ousing epartment's projects, have you ever heard of 50 solder strips being approved by the ousing epartment in its projects?. o, didn't.. o you have never heard of that?. o. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

211 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. would like to explore further the names with you. lease read page 15 of your witness statement, in 1. age 15, paragraph 11. n paragraph 11, you said that your company supplied three different types of soldering materials to the involved estates. y question is this. irst of all, you have lead-free solder wire in nglish, and then in hinese the equivalent, lead-free solder wire. hen the next one, "50 per cent lead flat solder sticks", and in hinese, "'50 lik' flat solder strips"; and then (c), silver brazing sticks. o we are only going to talk about lead-free solder wire and 50 per cent lead strips or sticks at the moment. ead-free solder wire first. or this brand, Y (indicating), is that the proper brand name, lead-free solder wire? : What is meant by "the proper brand name"? s it what the trade calls it?. Yes. W: hat's the supplier calls it by this name?. Yes, the supplier as well as workers, they usually referred to the materials as that, so just put it down accordingly. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

212 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o they would say "lead-free solder wire"?. ot necessarily. ometimes "high-temperature solder wire". You know the site workers call the materials by different names.. o for high-temperature solder, to your knowledge --. learned that through discussing with others.. ight. o do you agree that when we talk about solder wire, be it high-temperature and low-temperature ones, when we talk about solder wire, it's actually lead-free?. Yes, that's my understanding.. When we talk about solder strips or solder sticks, it's leaded?. ight.. o if may show you this, strips or sticks in silver colour (indicating).. Yes. t comes in strips.. o if we say solder wire, it's lead-free; if it's solder strip or sticks like this, usually it's leaded.. Yes.. o that's your common knowledge, that usually, if it comes in strips, usually it's leaded, whereas for solder wire, it's lead-free.. Yes.. o you as a supplier, if somebody told you that they wanted solder sticks or solder strips, you would supply ranscript by orporation sia, imited

213 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 the 50 per cent lead one; right?. Yes.. nless the customer specified solder wire, you would then provide this solder wire in a reel?. Yes.. et's look at page 98.. Yes. orry. 97, don't have 98, just 97. h, sorry, yes, 98. ound it.. f you look at page 98, this is olden ay ngineering, a purchase order, relating to your company. ere, it says some plastic materials, plastic sheets --. Yes , and then high-temperature solder strips.. (hinese spoken).. et me finish my question first.. orry. jumped the gun.. ust now, asked you about this. When we referred to solder strips or solder sticks, then your understanding is that it is 50 per cent leaded ones, and here it says "high-temperature solder sticks or strips", so first of all it's not solder wire. o what's your understanding of this description, high-temperature solder strips or stick?. learned from workers in the trade that there was high-temperature solder wire in reels, and would call ranscript by orporation sia, imited

214 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 to confirm the product required in the order. hen would also check whether previous orders also stated high-temperature, or was it just this purchase order. hen we would ask the client whether this was the type required. s understand, usually at the site they would ask for the one in reels.. o you mean to say that every time when somebody put down the high-temperature solder sticks, you would then wonder which type it was referring to?. We would believe that, normally, soldering materials in reels were requested.. o let's make it clear. (hinese spoken).. would also ask the purchasing department of the other side.. et's take this step by step. efore you ask the purchasing department of the client to clarify, on reading the words "high-temperature solder sticks", was asking you about the big differences between the solder wire and solder strip, on reading "high-temperature solder strips", wouldn't you think that it's referring to 50 per cent lead?. o, would first check whether in previous purchase orders the words "high-temperature" were included, and would also ask the other party what it meant. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

215 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o every time when you saw "high-temperature solder strips", you would have this question mark which type was being ordered?. ight.. hen you would ascertain the type before you supply the products to your customer?. ight.. o you wouldn't just assume that high-temperature means Y, this one? (ndicating).. o, would ask, would clarify it first.. f we look at the delivery note on page 97, here Y lead-free solder wire was delivered, according to the delivery note. o, according to you, you would have asked and ascertained the type required before you delivered the products; right?. ight.. Who asked? id you ask or your colleagues ask?. y colleagues.. o your instructions to your colleagues in the company was that every time when you saw the description "high-temperature solder strips" you would have to ask the client again?. didn't necessarily give this instruction every time, because every time, when the words "high-temperature" were stated, then the female staff would just take the ranscript by orporation sia, imited

216 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 initiative to ask, because the descriptions were different from previous purchase orders.. o, in relation to this delivery note in relation to olden ay -- and let's look at other delivery notes. he document at page 94, for example. age 94, 50 per cent leaded flat solder strips. he relevant purchase order is on page 84.. Yes.. n page 84, instead of solder wire, solder strips are put down. age 86, again, solder strips. o do you mean to say that if "high-temperature" is also added to the description "solder strips", your colleagues would automatically ask the customers?. Yes.. o this practice of clarifying whenever the words "high-temperature" appeared, when did it start? When was the first time you saw the description "high-temperature solder sticks" in the purchase order?. Well, a long time ago.. o did you think about it, what "high-temperature solder sticks" referred to?. y understanding is lead-free solder wire. : have gone through the information provided by your company, in relation to the packaging and technical ranscript by orporation sia, imited

217 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 data of the materials. understand that for solder wire it's 240 degrees elsius or so, that's the melting point. or the 50 per cent lead, on the technical data as read it; no information on melting point.. asically it has a lower melting point. : ower by how much, according to your understanding?. don't know for sure, but basically, if you use a gas torch, you could use an torch on that. : n both, you mean?. ot necessarily. or the one with the higher melting point, it will take longer for it to melt. or the other type, however, think it's just slightly over 100 degrees elsius. haven't checked carefully. just guessed. : Well, " checked that carefully yesterday, but it isn't written there"? o you don't know?. n their jargon it's called liquid solder or low-temperature solder. t's called liquid solder because it melts easily. : ight.. You are really in the know. : have another question, by the way. Which one is more profitable?. What do you think? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

218 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 : think 50 per cent lead is more profitable.. o, definitely not. f you check the price -- and did check the information in the relevant period, just checked the information provided by my colleagues -- in 2011 and 2014, lead-free was more profitable than non-lead-free. : You mean in terms of the volume sold? (hinese spoken).. (hinese spoken). : 'm talking about the profit margin.. don't know, but think the leaded one. orry, it should be the non-leaded one. : he lead-free one should be more profitable?. ecause as recall, it's $190 versus $95. : o, for lead-free solder wire, our understanding is this. We read the brochure. also has lead-free solder wire, 99. ut you didn't import that. Why?. Well, Y was readily accepted in the market. t had been in the market for many years and it was well known to plumbing workers. did not want to introduce a new brand. : You said, in terms of volume, you sold more lead-free than 50 per cent lead soldering material. What's the ratio? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

219 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. or my company, in respect of this product, it accounts for only a small percentage of our business turnover. rom 2011, 2012, 2013, we sold around 8,000 reels a year, on average. or the leaded one, 4,000 pounds a year, roughly. : o it's roughly 2:1?. Yes. W: When it comes to submission of samples to be submitted to the main contractor for onward submission to the ousing epartment, the contractors and subcontractors said they would ask you to give them samples.. ot necessarily true.. id they ask you for samples?. Yes, but it's not as a matter of course.. When they did ask you for samples -- let me clarify the procedure. When they asked you for samples, would they give you a list containing a number of materials, and then would they be tell you what kind of materials they would require? Would they be giving you a list of this kind?. What list?. et's say they would like to get ten materials or samples of ten materials from you. Would they be telling you orally one by one or would they be giving ranscript by orporation sia, imited

220 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 you a list?. ome companies would give us a list, some others would not.. or those plumbing subcontractors that we have been talking about -- ang ee, o iu ee, olden ay, Wing ing -- when they ask you for samples of soldering material, you would give them this one? (ndicating green reel).. t would be done on the request of the client. hey would require this.. hey would tell you specifically, "t's Y lead-free solder wire, give me one"?. Yes, they would tell us, yes.. nd you also provide the samples required?. Yes, when required, not when they are not asked for.. When they ask you for samples, they need samples, you provide samples?. Well, we provide samples as requested.. here would be documents; if there are documents, they can provide you the documents?. We might be able to download the information online or it may be given to my colleagues.. know you were not involved in the submission of. o. samples. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

221 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. You were only responsible for providing the samples. o, in respect of these plumbing contractors, when you provided the samples, would you be providing solder strips to them?. f requested by the client, yes.. id they ask you to provide solder strips for sample. o. submission?. o their request, their order notwithstanding, you have been involved in, ousing epartment, projects for years. You knew it would be correct -- let's not talk about what your clients asked for -- you knew that this one (indicating green reel) would be okay?. Yes.. et's turn to a paragraph of your witness statement, paragraph 7. You state that customers would not usually specify for what particular purposes the soldering materials would be used when they placed the orders. o they won't tell you the purpose when they place the orders. hen you continue: the soldering materials could be used for fresh water plumbing system, for human consumption or for other purposes, such as cleansing, plant watering, air-conditioning or fire services. o the soldering materials can be used for ranscript by orporation sia, imited

222 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 air-conditioning works. Who told you that? ow did you know?. Well, copper pipes can be used in air-conditioning, so it's possible. asically, we did not know how the soldering materials were used. We never enquired into that.. on't complicate things. You said that you knew.. Well, these are examples.. lease let me finish my question.. orry.. You knew that the soldering materials could be used for air-conditioning works. y question for you is how did you know that it could be used for air-conditioning? You wouldn't ask your client, so how did you know that it could be used for air-conditioning?. t is just an example. : t's just applying your common sense, so just answer the question.. ecause copper pipes can be used in air-conditioning. W: s the chairman has said, so it's just your common sense, it can be used for air-conditioning, not that you were told that the soldering materials could be used for air-conditioning?. ommon sense. : here's no need to be emotional, r haw. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

223 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 W: t's also stated that the soldering materials could be used for fire services. id someone tell you or did you just apply your common sense?. y common sense. : You mean whenever there are pipes, when soldering might be required?. am not in the business of engineering, so that's just my idea. W: o, according to your common sense, the soldering materials can be used for different purposes, including air-conditioning, fire services systems.. Yes.. ere, are you talking about the solder wire or the solder strip, the green one or the yellow one?. oth.. oth.. ll soldering materials, in other words. : r how, the flat solder stick comes with two labels, one in hinese and believe the other one is the original label. s the nglish label already there when they are sent to you?. Yes. : t states "lead-free".. Yes. : What about the hinese label? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

224 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. You know that 'm just as literate as those workers. f it's there -- : t's stuck there to facilitate delivery and sorting. o you want to make it convenient for the workers on the site to accept your delivery?. Yes, also for the sorting, the worker responsible for sorting materials, because they are not well educated. W: lumbing contractors such as o iu ee or olden ay place their orders, but do you agree with what am going to say: as a supplier, and you have been dealing with them for so many years, so you should know or you could imagine that soldering materials that they purchase would be for drinking water or fresh water plumbing works?. o, cannot agree. didn't really know that they would be used for drinking water plumbing.. ut at least that would be one of the main purposes; do you agree, it would be one of the main purposes?. You can put it like that.. et's look at some witness statements of o iu ee. 3, page his is the witness statement of s hiu from o iu ee. n answering one of the questions, let me first show you her statement. hen have some questions for you arising from her statement. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

225 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 he states, when her company -- when o iu ee told your company that they would like to get some samples ready for submission to the ousing epartment for approval, r wong would tell you that the soldering material would be used for jointing the drinking water pipes in public housing estates, and that's why your company would recommend that o iu ee should use Y lead-free solder wire, and the yellow one, the owerflow lux, you give them the information. o, according to her, someone from o iu ee would ask you for samples and they would tell you the purpose of doing that. o you agree?. gree. gree.. econdly, according to her statement, your company, upon knowing the purpose for the samples, your company would recommend you should use the green reels, lead-free reel, and not that you would only supply the samples as required?. We only distribute this product, so normally we recommend this one and nothing else. won't recommend the other brand -something, no.. o according to s hiu, your company would recommend that for samples to be submitted to the ousing epartment -- let me finish my question. or samples to be submitted to the ousing epartment, your company ranscript by orporation sia, imited

226 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 would recommend to o iu ee, "se this green one"? id it happen? s it true?. s have said, would provide information on this product if they requested for it. We are one of the distributors. o we have the duty to give the information they want.. y question is this. o iu ee asked you for samples. t that time, would you recommend o iu ee to use the soldering materials in reels?. s said, would suggest that this be used. f course, the customer might want it otherwise. : o you would make a suggestion because you have that in stock?. (hinese spoken). Yes. W: et's now turn to r ok oi wong's statement. age 15, r ok oi wong's statement. ow, r ok oi wong is from Wing ing, this company. hen paragraph 29, let me just go through this with you. "Wing ing, when purchasing soldering materials from rosperity and Wo ing, or other colleagues would place order by phone. nder normal circumstances myself or my colleague would contact s au from Wo ing or en from rosperity." hat's one of your colleagues? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

227 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. ight.. "nder special circumstances, for example when we did not have the telephone number of Wo ing's office or when the soldering materials were out of stock, we would contact the boss of Wo ing, r ui, directly for help. sually, the solder strips required by Wing ing would be 100 pounds in quantity. f the supplier did not have solder strips in stock, the supplier would suggest using the solder wire in reels as an alternative, and Wing ing would accept that as an alternative, to prevent delay in progress. n placing orders, all that was required was to state the quantity of solder strips required and the site location over the phone. here was no need to specify the brand of solder strips, model or purpose. s Wing ing would also place orders at the same time for other materials needed for plumbing works, suppliers usually would understand that the solder strips would be used for jointing pipes. herefore, Wing ing did not need to specify that, and the supplier would not ask specifically." would like to ask two follow-up questions on that. irst of all, it says here that when placing an order for soldering materials, sometimes other materials needed for plumbing works would be ordered. o your company should know that if an order for soldering ranscript by orporation sia, imited

228 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o. materials was placed this way, your company should know that it would be used for jointing pipes. o you agree?. lso, it says here that if no solder strips were available, a suggestion would be made to replace it by solder wire in reels. irst of all, my question is, did it ever happen that there was an order placed for solder strips, and if there was insufficient stock for solder strips, you would suggest substituting that with solder wire in reels?. o.. o, never?. Well, dare not say whether it never happened at all, because you are talking about two companies. : What about two companies?. Wo ing and rosperity. : o, we are just asking in relation to rosperity. et's say if somebody places an order for solder strips and there was insufficient stock, would you say, " will give you half solder strips and half solder wire"?. o, don't suppose so. t rarely happened. : o did it ever happen at all, that is the other way around, for example, insufficient solder wire, and you supplied solder strips instead? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

229 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. (hook head). : You shook your head; that means no?. o. : et's say for Y lead-free solder wire, had it ever happened before that there was insufficient stock for Y lead-free?. Yes, but we would not recommend the client to use an alternative. : id it occur frequently?. o. : What about solder strips?. We had that in stock. Yes, there were times when there was insufficient stock, but the situation was not serious. ecause that product wasn't exclusive, you could source that brand -- : ncluding Y and --. rom elsewhere in the market. : o you were just one of the distributors?. or the leaded one, we are not the distributor. You place an order and could get the stock from the, but that was the situation before. ow, don't know. ow, they have a sole distributor or the agent. ut previously, suppose there wasn't and you could just place an order by . nd for Y, there are have several agents. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

230 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 : o you were just one of them; not exclusive?. ight. W: You mentioned that at times there was insufficient stock for solder strips.. Yes.. n that case, what would happen?. will let you finish.. t's all right, please go on.. onestly, first of all already said we were not the exclusive agent in the market. We would tell the client we didn't know when the stock would be replenished and they would decide whether to wait, or we would just tell them when the stock would arrive, or to ask them to look elsewhere.. o ask them to look elsewhere, that means you are suggesting that the client contact another supplier because you did not have sufficient stock?. ight.. o there wouldn't be a case in which there was insufficient stock and you suggest an alternative?. ight. : o you are suggesting that in fact the client could purchase the materials from another agent, because you were not the exclusive agent?. ight, because the customer wanted, there was no ranscript by orporation sia, imited

231 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 reason for me to suggest, because the product was available currently in the market. : ecause this morning read from the newspaper that for the Y lead-free solder wire, it would definitely go out of stock if everybody wanted this type.. hat is not true. Well, in fact Y already had a representative in ong ong. W: ust now, you mentioned that if it was out of stock, you would tell the customer either to wait or to look elsewhere.. wouldn't tell the client that. t's not for me to decide whether -- mean it's up to the client to decide whether to look for another supplier.. o was there any occasion on which the customer would. o. invite you to suggest an alternative? : see on your price list, there isn't another type.. o what? : et's look at 3, page Yes. : his is the price list of your company, containing materials related to soldering sold to plumbing subcontractors. his list is exhaustive; is ranscript by orporation sia, imited

232 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 that right?. Where? : or the first three, we are all clear about these, and then silver brazing sticks or copper brazing sticks -- well, never mind about that. tainless steel soldering sticks -- never mind about that. think that's for jointing stainless steel pipes. two? What about this electro-soldering sticks, the next. t page 2354, this is for iron soldering. his is for soldering iron. : o, in other words, if you ran out of 50 per cent lead flat solder strips, either it's solder wire or nothing; right?. ight. W: et's turn to bundle 1, page 57.. Yes.. age 57, it's your company's invoice to ing op.. Yes.. ere, in relation to the supply of items, the second entry, " Y 50 per cent lead flat solder strips". hen, on page 75, similarly, another invoice to ing op, in relation to hoi ook state. t says here, the second entry, " Y 50 per cent lead flat solder strips". ranscript by orporation sia, imited

233 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 o Y 50 per cent lead flat solder strips, what does it mean here? ecause we just discussed it.. et me go through the steps with you. We put down " Y 50 per cent lead". irst of all, we would place an order from ong ong and then we would contact Y, and we would understand that, yes, the product was available. : o you would order 50 per cent lead from Y in the?. Well, yes, but eventually Y ceased to produce that and we then turned to. don't know whether any purchase order is available, but if you want can look for it. : o, for item reference number, it's Y-W50?. can be frank with you. y company has been incorporated for so long, we deal with over 10,000 items, don't want to use another code. We don't want to change the code. t's as simple as that. W: orry, didn't catch you just now. You said that at the outset you understood that Y supplied 50 per cent lead.. o, said when first purchased from Y, it was lead-free solder wire, and then learned that they also produced 50 per cent lead flat solder strips, so we also purchased that from Y and then eventually Y ceased ranscript by orporation sia, imited

234 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 production of that and then we switched to another company,.. o for Y 50 per cent lead solder strip, it's not an error, there was indeed this product from the same manufacturer?. Yes. (hinese spoken).. et's turn to a previous point. f you run out of solder sticks or strips, you would not recommend the client to use something else. What about your employees? Would they be recommending to your client to use an alternative?. You say if solder strips are not available?. f solder strips are not available, would your employees be recommending something?. ot likely, because we would know there are suppliers in the market who could provide the material, and it's more expensive to use an alternative. t's not very meaningful. f they have to use lead-free solder wire, it's more expensive.. ave you ascertained this from your employees?. hey should know. : o you mean that if they want solder strips, you would not take the initiative to recommend something else, because it would be more expensive?. ight. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

235 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. f they want solder wire, you would not recommend something cheaper?. o. (hinese spoken). : kay. get that. W: did ask you, when you first came across this green one (indicating), lead-free solder wire, you also came across this yellow one (indicating), the owerflux, and you knew this flux, Y flux, could be used for jointing drinking water pipes.. o be used in conjunction with the solder wire.. Yes. ll right. et's look at some of the orders. 1, page 135. his is an invoice you issued to o iu ee. You supplied Y, a big can of flux, and 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. hen let's go to page 139. gain, a big can of Y flux and then 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. t page 140, again, a big can of flux, 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. t page 113, again, the two materials, flux, the flat solder sticks. ages 144, 145, again you supplied both products. o you knew that the two were to be used together. o when a client ordered for flux product, and if they --. Wouldn't -- ranscript by orporation sia, imited

236 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. lease let me finish -- and then they order for solder sticks. : r haw, leaded and non-leaded solder material would both require the use of flux. W: o, if they ordered the two together, would you. o. ask, "Why not use that one instead of this one"?. et's turn to the next question. t's about a witness statement from o iu ee. et's turn to another page. age t's the statement of s hiu. he stated in this statement why 50 per cent flat solder strips were used. t's the result of recommendation by rosperity, she stated. et me finish with my question first. You know that they placed orders. hrough their orders -- according to s hiu, why this particular brand was used, it was because your company recommended it. o you agree with her statement?. Well, agree. f they ask for solder sticks, we provide solder sticks. f they ask for solder wire, we provide solder wire. We only provide these two relevant products.. o if you see solder stick or solder strip, you would provide 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks to them?. Yes. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

237 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Would you recommend to your client that for this. o. 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks, there are certain advantages or merits to it? Would you be doing that?. bout a previous question put to you. When your. o. client ordered for solder stick or solder strip, you would provide the 50 per cent lead one, and you -- am talking about you yourself -- if you see the words solder stick or solder strip, would you be trying to find out the purpose of using it?. et's look at the situation with certain housing estates. irst, Wing heong state. t's 1, page 218, starting from page Yes, can see it.. or the invoices relating to Wing heong state, they are all about 50 per cent flat solder sticks. or ung Wui state, page 205, all the orders were for 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. et's look at another one. hoi ook state, page 74. an you see it?. 74. Yes.. t that time, for these estates, you knew that when samples were submitted to the ousing epartment for approval, the samples submitted were Y lead-free ranscript by orporation sia, imited

238 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 solder wire; were you aware of that?. o. was not sure.. or ung Wui state, at the time, olden ay ngineering were required to submit samples for approval. o you are now saying that you did not know what samples were submitted?. We told them that they could download the information from our website. hey might or might not tell us after downloading the information.. id you provide samples to them; can you remember?. ight be, but they could also get a reel from the construction site for submission.. What about Wing heong state? he same question.. don't know. : You cannot recall?. sually, they would download the information from my company's website. he website is no longer available. reviously, the certificates and all sorts of information were available. : ut do you need to log in with a member's number?. o. : o it was accessible by all?. hey could download all the information they needed. W: kay. hey could download the information.. he certificates, as well as the information. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

239 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. did ask you if the plumbing contractors were required to submit samples to the main contractor for the approval of the ousing epartment, you knew that. o think my question is, in respect of ung Wui state, did you provide samples of soldering material to the contractor?. cannot remember now.. ut for ousing epartment projects, earlier you said it very clearly, your company's documents state very clearly that for ousing epartment projects, what would be approved would be the one, that is Y lead-free solder wire; agree?. gree.. or ung Wui state -- we are talking about plumbing. o. subcontractors, and they placed the orders with you -- all the orders were for 50 per cent flat solder sticks. here was none for this one, this green reel, which would have been approved by the ousing epartment. Were you not surprised? : et's look at it this way. With hindsight, we have all the information now before us. he perception might be very different. You should ask, at that time, when these orders were placed, what happened?. ll right, when they placed the orders every time, it ranscript by orporation sia, imited

240 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 was for 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. one of the orders was for the materials approved by the ousing epartment. Were you not curious?. Well, the orders were not handled by me or -- sometimes by my staff, and they could place orders for lead-free wires from another supplier. : You mean that they could have purchased lead-free solder wire from another supplier?. ertainly, could not ask them why not place similar orders with me. W: id these plumbing subcontractors ever tell you that they had purchased lead-free solder wire from another supplier?. Yes.. ne which did tell you that?. cannot remember now.. You can't even recall which one?. o, can't. : ut say for Wing heong state, for olden ay, the order was for 275 pounds, which was a lot.. ight, but we really wouldn't get into how or how much they would use. We don't know how to calculate the quantities required. : owever, for sample submission, it was you who provided the samples? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

241 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o, not necessarily. : You would provide the samples for free on. o. some occasions. : Yes.. ample provision for free? : Yes.. Yes. : o you would provide free samples to them for sample submission to the?. ight. : hen, when purchase was made, the purchase was for solder strips, so you provided solder wire for sample submission, and the customer came back to you and the customer bought solder strips, but it was you who provided samples to them for submission?. ut, as understand, the customer could get solder wire from someone else. : o was there some sort of an agreement, to say, " give you solder wire for sample submission for free, and after your approval is sought, is it possible that you would not come back to buy more from me"?. Well, it was okay for me whether the customer came back for more, because for this item, it was really in small ranscript by orporation sia, imited

242 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 quantities. ven if the customer didn't come back to buy more from me -- well, we had known each other for so many years, our companies had worked together for so many years -- wouldn't really consider that. W: ust now you mentioned that some plumbing subcontractor had told you that they purchased lead-free solder wire from another company. o was it the case that you gave them samples for submission and they later on purchased solder wire from another supplier in large quantities?. ut it's a free society. cannot control pricing matters.. o, after getting samples from you, some plumbing subcontractors would purchase large quantities of the materials from another supplier, another supplier other than you. s it just your assumption or did you hear it from others?. You could say that. t's partly my assumption. ome might think that our price was high and they would go for an alternative.. (hinese spoken). : e was saying that it could be an assumption, it could be fact. et's not talk about assumption. id it in fact happen?. Yes. or ing op, maybe ing op used our information ranscript by orporation sia, imited

243 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 for submission. t was possible. W: o some plumbing subcontractors might have obtained samples from you, but when actual orders were placed the subcontractor then turned to another supplier instead of you?. here was no problem with that.. 'm not suggesting that there was a problem. was asking roughly when was the first time you heard about that?. hat's all along what believe in doing business. : hat means you wouldn't care about these matters normally, you didn't mind. o are you suggesting that the clients may not return and yet you would do it anyway? ut his question was when you became first aware of this situation.. Well, that's a tricky question and cannot answer. think this is a longstanding situation in the trade. hat means, when you run a business, this would happen. W: ut this is not a problem for you?. o.. hat is -- : think you shouldn't ask this line further. W: bout your company's records, documents, would like to ask the following question. ccording to your witness statement, page 19 of 1, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

244 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 paragraph 20, you said: "espite the best effort of our staff to retrieve as many documents relating to the nquiry..., due to the long lapse of time and removal of storage places, [the relevant records could no longer be retrieved]." o my question is this. bout the normal practice of your company in relation to documentation, such as invoices and delivery notes, how long would these documents be kept?. onestly, we issue a lot of invoices every day. We have quite a lot of customers. o, as far as bookkeeping is concerned, we usually would only keep invoices up to seven years; delivery notes, just for two or three years. fter two or three years, delivery notes may be discarded. or customers' records of bills or payments, they would be discarded after some time, because we don't have enough storage space.. o you said that delivery notes would be kept for seven years?. o, only invoices.. elivery notes would be kept for a shorter period of time?. Yes.. Why? Why did you keep invoices for seven years and not delivery notes? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

245 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. hat's for bookkeeping. hat's the 's requirement.. hat's your understanding, 's requirement? What is the 's requirement?. o keep invoices for seven years.. o that's your understanding of 's requirement, that only invoices should be kept for seven years but not delivery notes. o what happens after keeping delivery notes for two or three years?. estroy them.. torage places, as you mention in this paragraph, what are the storage places for? or all documents?. hey would be placed in a certain corner in the company, in boxes.. hat's for storing old documents?. ight.. ld documents would include delivery notes?. Yes.. o, for delivery notes two or three years ago, on the one hand you said that they would be destroyed, and they would also be kept?. s said, they would be destroyed or discarded after two or three years. am referring to delivery notes.. nd when they were kept, where would they be kept?. corner in the company somewhere.. n your office? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

246 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. t's possible. lso, we have a storage in the ew erritories, a warehouse.. Where?. ong Yan un illage.. o what happens to the warehouse now?. or storage.. Yes, but at the time, the warehouse for keeping documents?. o, not in another warehouse. t's a place belonging to the company.. o documents were kept in the office of your company?. ight, or a corner in the Yuen ong warehouse.. nd for the warehouse in the ew erritories, nothing to do with keeping documents?. ot exactly. artially.. ny distinction, which documents were to be placed in. o. the corner of the office or in the warehouse?. he warehouse is still in use?. Yes.. id you ask any colleagues to go there to look for the relevant documents?. Yes.. When?. fter you informed us, we proceeded with it. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

247 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. or the lead in water incident, after it was exposed in uly 2015, last year, did any plumbing subcontractors, that is clients of yours, ask you to retrieve documents?. Yes. : Which one?. was requested to give some information. o iu ee, olden ay -- was requested to give information for passing on to the ommission. o acceded to the request. W: o several subcontractors asked you?. o iu ee and olden ay ngineering. W: will move on to another area. : o let's break for lunch and come back at 2.30, please. W: 2.30? : Yes. (12.57 pm) (2.29 am) (he luncheon adjournment) W: r how, before the lunch break, asked you about storage of your company's documents.. Yes. orry, let me speak to the mic.. enerally speaking, is it your company's practice that after the goods are delivered, you would send the ranscript by orporation sia, imited

248 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 delivery notes and the relevant invoices to the buyer?. Yes.. ut you would not attach the purchase order?. ometimes, yes. ome companies did require this.. o you would send your invoice together with the delivery note?. Yes, certainly.. n the question of filing your documents, will the invoices be placed together with the delivery notes?. ot necessarily.. ow would they be filed?. here would be a file holder, like this one.. here's a file for invoice and there would be another one for delivery notes; right?. t should be the case. ctually, don't know the details. am not responsible for filing.. You said the nland evenue epartment would require. o. that invoices be kept for seven years, but for delivery notes, they would be disposed of in two to three years. s that an established system?. s the disposal of delivery notes in two or three years. o. something that your staff would do automatically?. o on what basis did you say that they would be disposed ranscript by orporation sia, imited

249 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 of in two to three years?. f there are too many of them, too many documents, some would be disposed of.. What about delivery notes? Would they be subject to a similar kind of treatment?. Yes.. et's look at the documents that you have sent to the ommission. elivery notes first. et's go to page 63.. Yes.. Y lead-free solder wire for the anling project. t is dated 28 une 2008; do you see that? et's also take a look at page 67. ugust 2008, a delivery note, lead-free solder wire again. nd one more, page 71, a delivery note in 2008 for lead-free solder wire. age 73, again, 2008, you retrieved these -- they were many, many years ago, they were about deliveries made seven years ago. Why did you keep these notes for so long?. here was a removal exercise in ome were destroyed, some were not. here were hundreds of boxes. o some were disposed of and some remained during the removal.. When did you move?. n the last one or two years. hired a summer worker ranscript by orporation sia, imited

250 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 and then we disposed of some records.. o there was the removal, there was the clearing exercise one or two years ago. o it was before the lead in water incident?. Yes.. We were looking at some delivery notes. hey were typed by some computer program; right? With some computer program.. You mean the delivery notes, those with no signature?. Yes, name of client, items. hey were computer print-outs?. Yes.. or these hard copies, or it may be stored in a warehouse, they may be disposed of. o you have a backup in your computer?. You mean delivery notes? have to check. seldom pay attention to these matters. Yes, if delivery notes, maybe we can retrieve them.. ccording to your statement, you have done your level best to retrieve them. o my question is, while you did your best, did you ask your colleagues to try to dig out some past records from your computer?. irst of all, we need the signature for the delivery note to be valid. f there's no signature, then in my mind the delivery note is not valid. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

251 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. f you cannot find delivery notes with the signatures that you expect, didn't you think it would be worthwhile to find some information from your computer records?. t didn't occur to me. We managed to find thousands, and the warehouse was not a very good environment. he colleague did try very hard.. efore the lunch break asked this question. fter the lead in water incident, some plumbing contractors asked you to give them some delivery notes and other documents, including o iu ee, olden ay, they did ask you for past records, documents. id you try to find the documents and have a discussion with them?. o. Well, just did this on best-endeavours basis.. lso, let's take it one step at time, when a plumbing contractor asked you, r how -- you are the boss -- when they asked to do something for them, now there's the nquiry of the lead in water incident, they would like to know what products were delivered -- did you talk over with them about the matter? id you talk to the contractors?. Yes, o iu ee and olden ay, yes.. t that time, did you provide something different from what you have provided to us?. t should be similar.. o you gave some documents to the plumbing contractors, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

252 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 after identifying the relevant notes for the delivery of certain products. id you talk to r o an iu, proprietor of o iu ee, on whether there was something wrong with the products delivered?. o, not at all.. What about olden ay? id you talk to their staff or. o. the boss over their purchases?. ere, there are documents that you have given to the ommission. You said you have done the best. ut there are only a few purchase orders. hat's what you could retrieve on a best-endeavours basis. nd none of the purchase orders was for the purchase of solder wire. et's take a look. age 84, for example. t says "solder strip" or "solder stick".. Yes.. age 86, again, "solder strip" or "solder stick".. Yes.. et's focus on page 86. his is from olden ay, a purchase order of olden ay. ext to the words "solder strip" it says 55 pounds and then multiplication. Who wrote these words?. y colleagues. t was to facilitate sorting of materials to be delivered.. age 95. "older strip", and the words may be written ranscript by orporation sia, imited

253 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 by your colleague, "50 per cent lead". et's take a look at another one. age 98, "high-temperature solder sticks". have gone over all the purchase orders that you have provided to the ommission. What am saying is we do not have any purchase order with the words "solder wire" written on them. id you receive any order over the years that the order was for solder wire?. o. here were so many orders. cannot remember.. et's go to page 128. his is in respect of ai hing state project. You produced a lot of documents in respect of ai hing state. t was a big project. f we look at this table of yours, on page so you have 50 per cent lead, thin solder sticks, from time to time lead-free solder wire. ometimes there is an order for lead-free solder wire and 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks. o you provided what they asked for?. orrect.. et me ask you a question about 50 per cent flat solder sticks. et's take a look at "50 per cent flat solder sticks", the company is, the manufacturer. age 41 of 1. his is an introduction of, and there's a table done.. Yes. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

254 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. n the left-hand side, the fourth one from the left-hand. o. side, you can some letters,,,,,,, and so on and so forth. o you know, for 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks, they are actually related to number 13, ; do you know?. o you don't know where we can find the code or the number for 50 per cent lead flat solder sticks in this table?. o idea.. ll right. o, in relation to the delivery of 50 per cent lead strips, it came in a rectangular box like this? (ndicating).. Yes.. o you also had seen on these boxes a label bearing your company's words, "50 per cent lead flat solder sticks", and next to it there would be another label, "", another company. stand to be corrected, but here, there is this word "grade", and then "grade ", "grade solder"?. suppose so, if that is the case.. o reckon that it actually refers to in this table.. y understanding is the same. think so.. o we just base our guesswork on these documents; right? ecause reckon that you would be more familiar with ranscript by orporation sia, imited

255 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 these materials, so am asking you to see if you agree. o it was possible that the grade actually referred to this one?. think so.. f we look at "183 to 216", next to, is that the melting point, do you know?. 'm not sure.. ecause this document was provided by you, so have asked you some questions. his document is about the products, and noticed that on page 46, there is a paragraph explaining clearly that the product contains lead, which is harmful to health. hen there is an explanation on the harmful effects on humans. o, on 50 per cent solder sticks containing lead, this morning you told us that you knew about it, so you would also have the common sense that lead would be bad for health; right?. o, no idea.. o you don't even know that lead is harmful to health?. o.. You have provided this document, which is a brochure given to your company by about these products. You have submitted this to the ommission. ut before that, did anyone explain to you what this document is about? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

256 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o.. o, according to you, as far as leaded materials are concerned, there wouldn't be any harmful effects to human health?. Well, my understanding is this. We live in an era in ong ong where leaded pipes were used, and lead may be present in car emissions, in the atmosphere. We might have been exposed to lead and we might have excreted lead. o that's just my thought.. y question is this. You just said that perhaps in air and other things, there might be presence of lead, but my question is this. ccording to your understanding, lead is not harmful to health at all?. think there is some impact. understand that it would gradually be discharged; it would be diluted.. he lead would drop?. don't know, just read it from the reports.. o generally, if there is a suggestion that lead has an impact on health, then you would agree?. Yes.. his morning, when you answered my questions, you said that you knew the clients were plumbing subcontractors, when they approached you to order materials, and you also knew that the had approved the use of lead-free soldering materials. o did it ever occur to you that ranscript by orporation sia, imited

257 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 there might be a problem with the subcontractor ordering leaded soldering materials? : think we have been asking the same question for the whole morning. et's not dwell any further. W: ave you ever seen workers using green reels of. o. solder wire in actual soldering?. What about strips, solder strips; have you seen it?. o. saw that on.. ut not in actual life, actual reality?. o.. his morning, you told us that you discussed with han iu Wah of o iu ee in relation to the dimension of brackets, because o iu ee's evidence was this. You told o an iu that you would directly talk to site agents. o just want to confirm this with you.. o talk about the use of brackets.. ipe brackets?. r time of delivery. would talk to the site agents.. o your communication with the site agents would only be about the date and time of delivery?. Yes, because we need to make an appointment for the receipt of goods.. o would you call them or would you ask your colleagues to call them? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

258 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. y colleagues.. (hinese spoken).. Well, if they couldn't approach us, if they couldn't contact us, then might call myself, but not often.. o you often would call them and talk about what pipe brackets --. n the design of brackets, dimension, et cetera.. o did you personally discuss with the site agents. o. anything about soldering materials?. o you remember ung Yat state?. o, not at all.. ll right. han iu Wah also told us in his testimony that in relation to ai hing state, the orders he had been placing were solder strips, and he couldn't explain why eventually solder wire was supplied to him. now put this question to you. han iu Wah said he had been ordering solder strips only. o you agree?. isagree.. nother follow-up question. efore the lunch break, asked you about ung Wui state. f you look at page 205 in 1, your witness statement. or ung Wui state, all documents that you were able to retrieve showed 50 per cent lead flat solder ranscript by orporation sia, imited

259 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 sticks. his morning asked you, in relation to ung Wui state, you supplied samples of the relevant soldering materials, with the brand Y, whether you knew about that. Your answer was that you didn't know. o would refer you to the relevant document. f we look at hank you.. his is a document submitted to us by the main contractor. f we look at 9.3, page Yes.. his is the form prepared by the main contractor, submitted to the in relation to sample submission. We heard from evidence that you provided the samples. f we look at page 'm going to explain the nglish to you in a minute, but at the bottom, "upplier: rosperity", that's the name of your company. hen some information following that. or example, page 22151, actually. t's a document issued by your company.. Yes.. Your company's document, which is about Y owerflow lux. hen here is a picture, as you can see, perhaps not very clearly, a picture of Y lead-free solder wire. an you recall, from reading the documents, that in ranscript by orporation sia, imited

260 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 relation to ung Wui state, it was you who provided the Y lead-free solder wire as a sample for submission to the?. suppose don't remember. s said before, it was possible that they downloaded the information from the website.. o it was possible that they downloaded the information from the website and not provided by you?. Well, that was also information from our company's website.. o you mean to say --. Yes, yes, yes, information downloaded from online, sometimes we would only be told afterwards that our materials had been used.. ut after reading the documents in relation to sample submission, the form contained information in relation to this material supplied by your company. o, after reading the document, would you agree that it was very likely that your company provided the sample?. here are two possibilities. s said, they could download the information online, they could also get the sample from the site. s said, we are not the sole agent of this product. t's available in the market. n the internet, there is a certificate, and of course the name would be written there. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

261 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 : understand. have accessed your company's website as well, in vain.. n the past, we thought we should make it convenient for everyone. : Who is interested in asking further questions? ross-examination by : represent hui n. want to know more about the flow of work. lease take a look at 1, page 102. et's start with page 103, and also page 104. f you look, we have some dates. 24 pril 2013, that's the delivery date. here's also a time, and also there's a signature. f you look at the invoice, it is also dated 24 pril We don't have the purchase order. o, when you deliver on 24 pril, believe there was the purchase order first, and then you deliver on 24 pril. You also stated the time, and you would be informed by a colleague that the products were delivered, so the invoice was dated the same.. ight.. hen, on page 104, there's a fax. believe it was faxed to o iu ee on 25 pril. f course, we don't have the purchase order. o, on 24 pril, your colleagues received the order and then the products were delivered. t was signed on ranscript by orporation sia, imited

262 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 the 24th. : he 28th, rather, think. : 25th or 28th? Well, it was faxed on the 25th. id you fax the document to the site? don't know whether the date with the signature is 25th or 28th.. don't know whether it's 25th or 28th.. o this, the arrangement, that's the order, and then you would deliver on the same day?. ometimes, yes. ometimes, it was urgent, and the would be given to us afterwards.. o there would be the and the delivery note and then the invoice. he invoice and the delivery note would be sent to o iu ee at the same time.. re you talking about just the invoice?. o, delivery note.. We stapled the delivery note to the invoice.. et's look at page 107, a delivery note. age 106 is an invoice dated 10 ugust. o you know a person by the name of Wong wai ung?. e's a contractor or someone in charge.. e would be called the person in charge?. Yes and 108, both dated 10 ugust. o the delivery note is dated 10 ugust, so delivery was made on the same day. he invoice can be found on page 108. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

263 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 o can put it like this: if you had stock for delivery, it would be delivered on the same day?. Yes, that could be done. : You mean you just printed the document on the same day, not necessarily making the deliveries on the same day? : ut you can see the signature for accepting the delivery, and the date.. here was an amendment. : here was an amendment, so there's no established system to speak of. ut very often the delivery note would be sent with the invoice; right?. o the accounts department of o iu ee. : he delivery note and the invoice would be addressed to different people?. hey would be sent to the accountant. : When you deliver products to the site, you only attach the delivery note, no invoice?. orrect. : hen you would send o iu ee's accounts department a set of documents, that is the invoice plus the delivery note?. Yes. : You said Y solder wire was something that workers were very familiar with, so you don't want to ranscript by orporation sia, imited

264 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 make any changes to the code?. Well, it was a popular brand. t was a very common and popular brand in the market.. o perhaps workers should know that Y product is lead-free?. or some, yes. ome may not.. You can see from the photo, the green product has a label, it's lead-free.. You know the one who uses it may not know. hat's what think. : don't have any further questions. : What about r how? ross-examination by W W: have a few questions. represent Yau ee onstruction o. r how, you started rosperity in 1998, so that was 16 to 17 years ago. s it a well-established firm?. won't say that. o big corporations, it's a small company.. his morning, something was shown to you. would like you to look at it again. 15.2, page his is one of the reference materials.. lease continue.. ere, we can see that you were in co-operation with big construction companies. t is a work record, it is ranscript by orporation sia, imited

265 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 a work reference.. t's not , "ajor work reference".. t's called "job reference".. Yes.. here's another one, 15.3, page see it. Yes.. his is dated uly 2008, and you can see the title, "ajor job reference", and a list of projects that you have been involved in can be found there, and also the names of the developer, and the Y owerflow lux and lead-free solder wire were used. s this list solely related to plumbing works?. o. We searched the computer. his is for the reference of our clients.. ut you knew this would be presented to the ousing epartment?. o. t can be downloaded. You could present this to anyone.. What did you use it for? : t's for reference. ecause your question is very focused. You compiled the list, stating who had ordered this from us, and these are the projects. You can use it for whatever purpose you see fit.. t's about the information that we have. W: o, from this document, you would like to tell us, ranscript by orporation sia, imited

266 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 tell people, that you have co-operated --. ollaborated with major construction companies?. Yes.. (hinese spoken).. hey have a purchased materials of you.. small amount only.. his will be the purpose of your document.. We just want to tell people who the major contractors were.. (hinese spoken). : lease ask questions. 'm not sure know what answers you are expecting from him. W: his is a major job reference. t's for the uildings epartment or for any parties. t's for the purpose of telling people that we have provided materials to these big developers -- well, big and small. f course, they just want to impress their clients. : hat goes without saying. W: You can see Yau ee, and some are ousing epartment projects. hey just want to highlight that they do know something about the ousing epartment's requirement. hey knew that it should be lead-free and there were purchases made for ousing epartment projects. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

267 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 : o do you agree?. o agree? : think the question should go like this. You have a list, Yau ee, hina tate and the ousing epartment projects all listed here, so you now knew the requirements of the ousing epartment concerning be the use of soldering material. o you agree?. o, no. : You don't agree? W: et's see another document. You said you don't understand nglish. ut you said your staff would understand nglish. r ing, for example. ow will invite you to read another document. age his is dated 30 ay 2007 from en ing of your company to ing op. age 1, let's scroll down and have a look. aragraph 1 relates to a silver bracket materials. hen, down there we've also put footnotes to the general requirements in the general descriptions, to help better understand the requirements. hen the following page, if we look at (b) and (c), very clearly the lead-free soldering wire provided by my company does not contain lead. hen it states the ingredient and then it complies with which requirement ranscript by orporation sia, imited

268 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 of and the standard?. Yes, definitely, the Y lead-free solder wire complies with the standards.. o back in 2007, your staff was already selling or promoting this product; do you agree?. agree that this is a lead-free product. : e knows because even if the major job reference, it talks about the projects with the and. reviously, it already stated the technical data of Y and then the major job reference was also attached, which talks about and projects. W: ut my question, r hairman, is this. erhaps let me put it this way. Why did you have to emphasise that it's lead-free?. reiterate that it was on the request of the market, the, the client -- this product was already acknowledged in the market, and it wasn't rosperity which was the first supplier of this product.. nd what's your understanding of this 50 per cent lead?. t's a kind of solder wire.. What about the ingredient?. t contains lead. : et me clarify. absolutely understand the idea of providing items on the customer's request, but a number of clarifications are needed. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

269 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 or soldering materials to be supplied in project for fresh water plumbing installation, you understood that it should be lead-free; right?. o, no idea. : or project, no idea either?. o. : o you mean you personally didn't know, but now, upon reading these documents, do you agree that in fact somebody in your company knew?. think probably, or possibly, but need to -- well, possibly. : hat should be the case, right, after reading the documents? W: his morning, you -- mean, your previous answer was that you understood that for the 50 per cent lead solder strips, it contained lead. his morning, you also said that decades ago -- mean before Y was used back in 2000-something, the trade used to use --. Yes, more than 30 years. t has existed in the market for over 30 years.. You are talking about 50 per cent lead?. Yes, but could be 40 per cent, 50 per cent, 30 per cent; don't know.. o, in the past, did your company --. orry, didn't catch your question. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

270 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. efore , before your company sold Y, you used to sell this 50 per cent lead?. Yes.. o, apart from customer's request, why -- perhaps one day a customer came with this green reel in hand, stating that he would like this one -- did you ask up why all of a sudden the client would prefer this over the 50 per cent lead?. didn't dwell into the reason? When a customer requested lead-free, went for lead-free.. ut we're doing a business here. ay 50 per cent lead, 50 grams, that's slightly more than a pound in weight. or a solder strip, 1 pound each, it's four or five times. o why wouldn't you ask the customer why he would opt for the green reel?. f were in the procurement department, would gauge the demand in the market.. emand in the market? What does that mean?. Well, anyway, it's just a market. aybe construction projects.. o, about your colleagues, would they also try to understand the difference between the two, in order to sell to others?. f course, these two are different. ne says 50 per cent lead, the other says lead-free, the name is ranscript by orporation sia, imited

271 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 different, and then the packaging is also different?. ut did you try to understand the difference in ingredient and pricing?. he pricing difference already explained the difference.. What about your staff?. don't think my staff would pay so much attention into his matters.. o you personally knew?. knew that one was leaded.. bout your witness statement, you also talked about the difference between the two. et me refer you to the witness statement.. eally, sometimes don't understand what you are talking about. erhaps your voice is just too soft.. bout the two materials your company sells, the first one in your witness statement -- and 'm referring to 1, page 24. his is attached to your statement. ere, it says "99 lead-free solder wire", and it says it's used for potable water supplies. t's lead-free. hen you also attach another type,, 1, page 46. t the bottom, "dditional information". nder paragraph 15, "dditional information", it says clearly: "ontains lead which may harm your health... egulations forbid the use of lead solder in... ranscript by orporation sia, imited

272 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 drinking water supply system." nd one must wash hands with soap after touching the solder.. s said, for the soldering materials, it's possible that the materials are not used for potable water supplies and it's up to the customer to decide which or what soldering materials to use. t's not up to me to decide. nly the customer would know where the soldering materials would be applied. erhaps it would be used to, say, plug some holes, maybe because it has a low melting point; maybe it's used for jointing pipes.. his morning, we talked about lot about common sense, and your company sold other products as well, and could see from your brochure that whenever the solder wire is sold, you would sell the owerflow lux in yellow, together; that's your practice?. o, because for the owerflow lux, as understand, it's sort of a cleansing agent. ow, asked some plumbers, and my understanding is that it's kind of a cleaning agent, basically to clean the surface of copper for better jointing. When using the tin solders, be it 50 per cent lead solder strips or solder wire, this kind of flux will have to be applied as a kind of cleaning agent.. his morning, you said that when some plumbing ranscript by orporation sia, imited

273 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 subcontractors place orders with you, you would think that they were placing orders for reels of soldering materials?. think you misunderstood my answer. We respect the customer on whether they chose strips or reels.. 'm not putting the blame on you, r how. just want to make it clear, to understand this incident, after it happened, to see if there is any room for improvement. 'm not putting the blame on you. You said normally solder wire in reels would be used. his morning, you said that your colleagues said that normally, solder wire in reels would be used.. never said that. didn't say that this morning. didn't say this at all. didn't answer this question at all, 'm sorry.. We can check the transcript later. o you gave the customer whatever the customer requested?. nder some circumstances.. You knew -- : Well, didn't we explore these questions already? on't repeat, please.. am clear of the responsibility. hat's the most important thing. W: nother question about your relationship with ranscript by orporation sia, imited

274 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o. r ok oi wong, relationship as client; are you familiar with him?. o when ok oi wong placed order with you, did he do so directly or through your colleagues?. hrough my colleagues.. id he order directly with you?. arely.. ut when he did so, what would he say?. wasn't present when he talked to my colleagues. can't answer you.. What about those orders involving you?. arely.. ut he did approach you?. Yes, but not often.. o what did he say to you when he placed the orders directly with you?. n order for solder strips.. o you knew that those were about plumbing works?. Well, reiterate that have no idea where the soldering materials should be applied. t's such a big site.. o r ok had some allegations. want to explore paragraph -- mean, this morning, we explored paragraph 29 of your statement, and now would like to ranscript by orporation sia, imited

275 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 turn to 1, page 17, paragraph 33. n paragraph 33, he mentioned: "en, the staff of rosperity, rang Wo ing to ask whether the soldering material sold to Wing ing contained lead or not. he staff member of rosperity, en, and r ui of Wo ing initially said they didn't know. owever, pursued the question, and en from rosperity later informed me that after enquiring with the supplier, he knew that the solder strips contained 50 per cent lead." o do you agree with me? id en tell you?. can say don't remember.. o, when this incident was exposed, of course you received a lot of phone calls and you talked to your colleagues about this incident, and what had been sold to the clients?. Yes, we did look into this, and also we discussed how things should be done in the future.. id your staff tell you, "We sold something that. o. contained lead"? id they tell you this?. ut as far as you know, when did your staff know that solder strips did contain lead?. ome of them should know.. What about en? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

276 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. think he knew.. When?. think a long, long time. When he was dealing with the orders, think he knew.. ut you cannot ascertain whether the phone calls from ok oi wong were received?. his is from r ok. r ok asked en whether lead was contained, but we delivered the products to ok oi wong. n the box, it is marked that it contains lead. en wanted to ascertain things before giving an answer. late. o that's the reason why the reply was given so. You said that orders would be placed for leaded products; only if there is no stock would a lead-free product be ordered. You said that all along you placed the same order, but on one occasion there was no stock and he would have to wait for a few days, and then the workers would have nothing to do -- you know, their wages were high -- so he asked whether there was any substitute for solder strip, and then the supplier or suppliers delivered the products that he needed.. answered this morning the question, whether we would make any suggestion or recommendation to switch to another product. ecause the same product will be ranscript by orporation sia, imited

277 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 available in the market.. o r ok should know that this green product, and the one in reels, would be available. ow long have you been on familiar terms with r ok?. ive or six years.. tarting from ore or less like that. t was so long ago.. ow did you know him? : What's the relevance? W: Was there someone introducing him to you? id r ok give you any price quotation when he placed an order?. We have a price list.. id you give him a price list?. Well, we gave the quotation in accordance with the one on the price list.. re you sure that you did give him a price list?. Well, if you ask me whether he knew, he should know. e will have to settle the payment.. nd r ok said that it's really troublesome, it's really cumbersome to buy from you, because payments will have to be made in cash.. Yes.. or some, you give them a 60-day credit, so it's for other people? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

278 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Yes.. What kinds of people?. hose with which we have regular dealings or we have been doing business for quite some time.. have a document for n hau state, your statement in paragraph 12. 1, page 15. here is nothing about lead-free solder wire for n hau state.. Which page?. 1, page 15. o asterisk for n hau state here, in respect of lead-free solder wire. s it because you have read 1, page 57? id you read this document first and then you compiled the list?. hat's a. hat's a from ing op.. Yes. here's another order: 1, page 60. here is an invoice. here was an order for " Y lead-free solder wire".. have said this again and again; if we have stock, it will be provided.. understand. ut in paragraph 12 there's no asterisk for lead-free solder wire. o you said you did not supply this.. aybe there's an omission. o you are saying that there was an order for n hau state for lead-free solder wire? here may be a typo or omission.. You can see the delivery address, n hau treet. ee ranscript by orporation sia, imited

279 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 1, page 60. : ut the invoice is not 100 per cent correct. W: understand. W: hairman, there is no re-examination. : ll right, r how, you may go now. W: hank you. (he witness withdrew) : ther witness or witnesses? et's take a ten-minute break first. (3.39 pm) (3.56 pm) ( short adjournment) : he next witness -- from Wo ing, is it? : hairman, am the counsel representing Wo ing. now call r ui in un from Wo ing to the stand. : lease come over here, r ui. (affirmed) : lease be seated, r ui. xamination-in-chief by : hairman, r ui earlier prepared a witness statement in nglish. am sorry, hairman, don't know which bundle this witness statement is in. : 1, page 8. : hank you. am going to read out his statement in nglish. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

280 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 (aragraphs 1 to 5 were read in nglish) his is a typing error, 'm sorry, it should be "strips". (hinese spoken). : igh-temperature. : 'm sorry, hairman. : s your copy different from ours? : orry, 've got the wrong copy. (aragraphs 5 to 16 were read in nglish) (n nglish) igned by r ui and interpreted by me. hereafter are the attachments of the witness statement. (ia interpreter) hairman, read out the witness statement. r ui, can you confirm this statement? : "dopt this as your evidence to the ommission". : hank you. o you adopt this written statement as your evidence to this hearing?. kay. : have no other questions. ross-examination by W W: r ui, when did you start to work in Wo ing?. n 1992, if remember correctly.. o you have been dealing with metal hardware. ow long have you known r ok oi wong?. ore than ten years. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

281 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o, in the past ten years, you have been placing orders?. Well, from time to time. ot always.. as o iu ee placed any orders with you?. o.. What about olden ay?. o.. When ok oi wong placed an order, did you know that the material would be used for ousing epartment projects?. Yes, knew.. or public rental housing estate projects or for, did. o. you know that the materials to be used, including soldering material, would be required to go through a process of sample approval? id you know that?. et's look at paragraph 5 on page 10 of your statement. You said Wo ing sells several types of soldering material. We don't need to look at the first and the last. et's look at the two in the middle: high-temperature tin soldering strips, and lead-free tin soldering threads. r ui, when did you first come across lead-free tin soldering threads?. Well, a long, long time ago.. ore than ten years? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

282 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Yes, should be.. nder what circumstances did you come across this?. ome people doing engineering work use it frequently.. id some workers tell you or did someone want to place an order?. Yes, someone wanted to place an order, and they said it should be soldering threads or wire.. id they mention lead-free?. Yes. or people in the industry, soldering threads means it's lead-free, and it comes in reels.. o if people say soldering threads or soldering wire, then you understand that is lead-free?. Yes, because they would be ordering in terms of number of reels.. o you saw this more than ten years ago? (ndicating).. Yes. : ow many? ow many lead-free tin soldering threads do you sell?. nly one type. : nd the price?. t's market price. ore than $100 a reel, $100-odd a reel. We don't sell large quantities of these threads. W: ow many brands of high-temperature tin soldering strips do you sell? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

283 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. ust only one brand.. You submitted this to the ommission. an you see it? (ndicating). his is the so-called high-temperature tin soldering strips. ow do you know it's high-temperature?. he customer wanted something for high-temperature. didn't know what it was so sourced it. he supplier said it was, and he said 50 per cent meant it's high-temperature. With more lead, the melting point would be higher, so they said it was high-temperature.. o you were told that the higher the content of lead, the higher the melting point? he supplier told you this?. Yes, the supplier said that this one was high-temperature soldering strip.. f we compare high-temperature tin soldering strips and lead-free tin soldering threads, which one has the higher melting point?. don't know.. o you did not make any comparison, but when your client wanted high-temperature soldering strip, you would ask your supplier for high-temperature soldering strip, so you have been providing this? (ndicating).. Yes.. o you know the green one is lead-free. o you know ranscript by orporation sia, imited

284 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 that high-temperature tin soldering strips contain lead?. Yes.. ead is harmful to health. ave you been aware of that?. Yes.. o, for the two materials, high-temperature tin soldering strips and lead-free tin soldering thread, both can be used for jointing the pipes; do you know that?. Yes. Well, it can be used for other purposes.. et's look at plumbing first. ne of the main purposes would be for plumbing works?. Yes, it can be used that way.. here are other uses. What other uses do you know?. or example, the welding for air-conditioning of the pipe, the tray for holding water. o air-conditioners and the pipes used in air-conditioners.. ow do you know?. t's just common sense.. (hinese spoken)?. (hinese spoken).. or the high-temperature one and the lead-free one, in terms of price or cost, which one will give you a higher profit margin?. he lead-free one.. he lead-free? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

285 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. Yes.. y how much? igher by how much?. sually, we get a margin of 10 to 20 per cent in the trading.. o you are referring to the profit margin, some 10 per cent. o for lead-free solder threads and high-temperature solder strips, what's the difference in the profit margins?. You just do the same calculation, just top up the cost by 10 per cent or so. hat's the higher the cost, the higher the profit margin.. efore the lead in water incident, have you ever heard. o. that lead-free soldering material should be used?. n your witness statement, you mentioned that invoices would be given to customers for delivery of goods for signature. oesn't your company have delivery notes?. Yes, but for customers who ordered with us in the capacity of an individual, we wouldn't issue delivery notes, such as ok oi wong.. et's take a look at delivery notes. age 32,. o. an invoice to ok oi wong. Would there be a delivery note separate from this invoice?. ust now you mentioned that sometimes you had the ranscript by orporation sia, imited

286 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 invoice as well as a delivery note. n what circumstances? When it's business-to-business?. Yes, there would be the business, the company's name.. nd that's your usual practice?. Yes.. fter the lead in water incident, did r ok oi wong discuss with you whether there were problems with the goods ordered?. Yes, he did ask me. e asked whether it contained lead and said yes, because that was his request and his order.. Wait a minute. e asked you whether the goods he ordered contained lead, he asked whether you knew, and you answered simply that, "Yes, know it contained lead". nd then what?. nd he asked why, and then said that was the goods he ordered.. o was he putting the blame on you, that lead-free material should be used?. o, he didn't do that.. ccording to other witnesses, we understand that for the. o. lead-free one, comparing to the leaded one, the melting point is higher, so it's harder to melt. o you know about that? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

287 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. ave you heard of the brand "50 per cent lead"?. hat's the questionable soldering material. ut before that, hadn't heard about it.. o about these high-temperature solder strips, what's the brand?. o brand.. o what's the country of origin?. o idea.. ow long have you bought it?. didn't buy this often. t was when there was an order from a customer that began to buy it.. et's not talk about r ok oi wong. You have been in the business for many years. or how many years had you been selling this material?. ot very long. even or eight years.. part from supplying the material to r ok oi wong, did you supply to others?. Yes, but rarely.. or other customers, were they also in the plumbing business?. o idea.. o usually, when customers place orders for such materials, you wouldn't specifically ask about the purpose?. wouldn't. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

288 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41. o, after selling the products for over five years, you still had no idea the country of origin?. ight, because they came in bundles or reels, and some may be manufactured in the mainland or in hina.. o you heard about those manufactured in hina?. Yes.. ccording to your statement, the goods would come in, not in boxes but in bundles, tied with an iron strip. s you understand, the same bundle should belong to the same manufacturer.. ight.. ut you heard that it could be manufactured in the mainland as well as in ong ong?. Yes. W: have no other questions. : have a question. o brand?. o brand. : o how did you place order with the manufacturer?. ust simply "high-temperature soldering strips". : nd this would be given to you?. Yes. : You ordered from ak ing heung,, and only 50 per cent thin tin threads or tin strips would be written. ranscript by orporation sia, imited

289 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 ere, you mentioned in your statement that your company sells high-temperature tin soldering strips, but according to r ok oi wong, when he placed the order over the phone, he only ordered soldering strips.. ut no, on the first occasion, he ordered high-temperature soldering strips, so we gave him the same, and after that, although the words "high-temperature" were mentioned, "soldering strips", were given. : ny questions? o? hen we will adjourn. hank you. You may be excused. (he witness withdrew) : hairman, may be excused? : ll right. W: hairman, we have dealt with the testimony of the two suppliers, and tomorrow we will deal with r eung Wai in's statement and r Wong wai ung and s hiu. opefully, we will be able to complete their testimonies tomorrow. : ll right. o what happens after that? W: hen, starting from hursday, we would deal with a number of witnesses from the ousing epartment, one eung. : e was the then? ranscript by orporation sia, imited

290 nnex: ealtime nglish ranscription based on floor / imultaneous nterpretation ommission of nquiry into xcess ead ound in rinking Water ay 41 W: Yes. he second is r Wong ay. : o let's finish o iu ee's witnesses first, tomorrow, before we decide, depending on the progress. here won't be a hearing next onday, because r ai is otherwise engaged. W: We also need consider r am ak um's physical condition and see when he can come back to finish his testimony. : would like to ask everyone here, how many more questions do you want to put to r am ak um? W: en minutes. : ny others? : bout ten minutes as well. : o definitely we can finish within 30 minutes. ll right. (4.25 pm) (he hearing adjourned until am the following day) ranscript by orporation sia, imited

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Microsoft Word - 10100000191.doc 臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司辦理認購 ( 售 ) 權證帳簿劃撥作業配合事項部分條文修正條文對照表附件 1 修正條文現行條文說明第五章認購 ( 售 ) 權證之權利行使第一節認購權證採證券給付或以證券給付之認購權證發行人得選

林 先 生, 我 嘅 理 解 就 係 你 好 似 唔 係 好 舒 服 喎, 係 咪? 答 : 嗄 主 席 : 你 係 咪 唔 係 好 舒 服? 答 :...( 聽 不 清 ) 主 席 : 聽 唔 聽 到 我 講 咩 嘢 呀? 答 : 哦, 聽 到, 而 家 主 席 : 你 係 咪 唔 係 好 舒?

林先生, 我嘅理解就係你好似唔係好舒服喎, 係咪? 答 : 嗄主席 : 你係咪唔係好舒服? 答 :...( 聽不清 ) 主席 : 聽唔聽到我講咩嘢呀? 答 : 哦, 聽到, 而家主席 : 你係咪唔係好舒?